Introducing Joey Steele and his musical history since Nosferatu [00:00:00]

Brian Pritchard: Celluloid. And we're turning it into music and podcast for you

Nicky P: Welcome everyone to another episode of Week From Celluloid. I am Nicky P here as always with Brian Pritchard. Today we have with us a special guest as I believe we're going to be doing more of moving forward. Brian, why don't you introduce us to the, what is to me I understand a man, a myth, a legend from your past.

So.

Brian Pritchard: A- absolutely. I'm, I, I couldn't be more excited to get to spend some time with, with Joey Steele tonight and, in, in terms of the, the musical introduction of it all, I wanted you to weigh in just because I, I, I've known you to be associated with, with more than one project over the years. And, and I'm, you know, which ones to you today in 2026 are the most active that, that, that you care about, you know?

Joey Steele: Yeah, it's hard to keep track of my bands, w- whether they still exist or not. I don't even know sometimes if the band still exists, so it's a good question, Brian. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, so I'm in, I'm in a bunch of bands and have been in a, a bunch of other bands that don't really play that much anymore, but actively, my band Cop Out, my band All Torn Up, and my band Bowhead, are very active.

So those three bands are very active. Some people might know me better from Skullcaster, which was not, along, around for a very long time. But, people know that band too. And I was in a bunch of other bands that no one cares about.

Brian Pritchard: All, all, all three of us honestly have, have, that, that same situation.

You know what I mean? And, and- I could rattle off 10 or more projects that I've performed on stage under some, you know what I mean, v- variation. I know that to be true of Nick as well and-

Nicky P: I think I'm actually up to 31.

Brian Pritchard: Fair enough. Then you, you maybe genuinely have us all beat. I, I, I would joke around for years that it's sort of the whoever's available band, you know what I mean?

That, that, that I'll start with booking a show and then kinda backpedal into, like, figuring out which act, you know, can, can even be assembled for the project, you know? But no, I, I, I, I knew you at a point in time where, where, I was having my foundation as a, as a young man and, and as a young musician, you know?

That, that the very first band that I played in when I was, 13, 14, 15 years old, we went by Nosferatu, we went by Drop, right? And, you were writing lyrics. You were front and center. I, I knew you to be very interested in, in being in bands and being part of that world and, and, again, obviously writing lyrics even at, at that point in your life.

And, the only stage time I remember, w- was, you know, seeing you, y- y- you came up and did the, the Tom Jones cover with us, I think at least once or twice. But when, when did you first actually, what was the first band? You know what I mean? And, and how did your more direct, you know, musical endeavors really kick off?

Joey Steele: God, I think that I forgot that those Nosferatu practices, I think I wrote a song. I think I just remembered the song name. I think it was called Lost Monkeys in high school with you guys. And my God, yeah, I, Jesus, I just forgot. I think my, m- my hearing, by the way, on my left side of my head still doesn't quite work that well because of Nosferatu practice, at your house.

My s- my hearing is still fucked up from those days. Um-

Brian Pritchard: I'm very pleased to hear that.

Joey Steele: It's left an indelible mark on my, my, mentality. Well, I mean, you know s- our mutual friend, Mike Salisbury, and I, Mike was in a bunch of bands. King, was a great band, a Cleveland band. But he was in a bunch of bands.

All Torn Up's 20-year run and its lineup history [00:04:00]

Mike, Mike and I tried to be in bands together for a while, and like we had written some songs, and it never really manifested into anything. But, after I left high school, I went to college and got really involved in political work, so it sort of went down that realm. And I had a bunch of friends, and we sort of like were, were mixing around in college with, with doing music all the time, but it never, it also never really quite manifested.

And then I came to New York. I was moved to New York for the political stuff and in 2003, I think, and, quickly got thrown out of the organization that I was in that moved me to New York. And the first thing I did after I left the organization, I was never allowed to start bands in the organization I was in.

We weren't, I was specifically not permitted, so as soon as I was thrown out, my first activity was to try to find a thrash band. I initially tried to find a thrash band to get down with, on Craigslist. I went to some practices, and they were not interested in my vocal efforts, and so, I found the guys who eventually became All Torn Up.

And so All Torn Up has been basically almost 20 years of us playing together, 20, 20-something years almost. I think 20 years, yeah, 20 years this year. Playing with those guys

Brian Pritchard: Got it. So that, that was the first, project and it's exciting indeed to hear that, that, that one of the three that you mentioned, was the, the, the, the original one.

Is it the same assembly of, of, of people at this point or has there been some rotation?

Joey Steele: The initial guy who pulled us all together actually was this, this dude... Oh, my internet says it's, it's troublesome, so if you're having trouble with my internet just let me know, Nick and Brian. This guy Mike pulled us together, and he was a total dud and we lost him quickly.

And then it was Soren and, Soren the drummer and I, got down and then, Cello our guitar player. So it's been, like, the three of us always in All Torn Up. And we had a little bit of change. We've changed bass players a couple times. Originally we had a guy named Brian and he then f- a new bass player named Philippe and now we have Calum playing bass and Jason Tanzer has joined us.

But it's b- it's basically, it's basically always been the same guys.

Nicky P: Bass players don't count anyways

Brian Pritchard: In most

Nicky P: Bands, so you're okay.

Joey Steele: Don't tell them though. It's the only thing they wanna hear.

Brian Pritchard: It's true. That is one of the, like, yeah, most common rotating slots for sure. So, so, you know, the, the, the-

Joey Steele: Oh my God, Cop Out has had like, Cop Out has had like 12 bass players and like 12 drummers.

We've had so many bass players and drummers it's insane.

Brian Pritchard: So All- All, All Torn Up, lyrically speaking is it fair to say you were most driven by- Bringing the political advocacy side of your world into music, was that a driving force, like from, from day one? Or, you know, what, what, what was the mission, man?

"Music is community organizing" [00:07:00]

Joey Steele: To me music is community organizing, first and foremost, above everything else. Above anything else, music is community organizing. And I think too many musicians, n- resist that understanding, and I think it makes their music suffer, I think it makes their personality suffer, I think it makes their stage show suffer, I think it makes everything awful.

I don't think you can be a real musician without understanding the role of community. And so a part of that is for me, for me, political. And so I'm, I'm a political beast. Everything I do is pol- politics. So phil- philosophically and politically, even, even our Nosferatu song, Lost Monkeys, was a political song as far as I'm considered.

But, yeah, it's like all philosophy and politics have heavy-handed with that stuff. I don't know how to write otherwise. But I, I did some bands that weren't, like, explicitly direct politics. I had a band called The Will that was all about movies and VHS tapes, and, we did, like, we did, like, 30 songs about horror movies, and, like, 30 songs about action movies, and 30 songs about sci-fi movies, and they were just, um...

But they were still really, really political. It was just, like, through a movie, you know. So I ruined a lot of movies that way.

Brian Pritchard: Well, sure. Got it. No, I, I, I, I, I like the idea that to your point, right, mu- music and live performance in particular, is inherently a communal experience, right? And certainly, you know, even in, in, in my corner of the world I've, I've enjoyed moments that felt like you had a scene, that felt like you, you had built a community.

The, the like-mindedness of, of that, of communities of people, it's interesting c- 'cause people can be like-minded in ways that y- y- I think of like concentric circles, you know what I'm saying? That, like, people might have, like, 80% of things in common, but then there's this corner over here that, that isn't.

Cop Out's politics of connection vs. All Torn Up's anger [00:09:00]

I, I've always been excited about the ongoing dialogue. I love, interacting with large groups of people. And music, of course, is, is a language unto itself. Whether there's lyrics attached or not, music is, is communication, right? Just, just sort of by itself even. Um- Yeah, so it's, it, it, it's, it's exciting to see your, your, your passion and, and you've obviously brought that to the forefront.

Cop Out being as, you know, also a politically motivated band, what was the, the, the, I say need for or idea in terms of what... You know, are you just trying to, to expand your palette as far as collaborators? Or is- what, what to you is the distinction between, I say the, the mission of those two groups, for example?

Joey Steele: Yeah, that's a good question. I think... Well, first of all, I don't agree with anybody. So, like, there's nobody I agree with politically I think in the world. So it's easy for me to be like, I don't really agree with anybody in the audience or in my bands or in my life or my partner or like, or pretty much anybody.

So, you know, like I don't think it's really necessarily about agreeing or disagreeing. I think it's more about a connection, and that's why I think the music is, is the important part. The performance, the song, everything is about a connection, and if... I think every musician who denies that, that, that thing that they're creating is about a connection between them and them- and someone else is, s- something else.

They're not a musician. They're just a masturbator or I don't know what they are, but they're, they're not really a musician. Music is about connecting people together. And so-

The Commitments and the difference between showmanship and connection [00:11:00]

Nicky P: Have you ever seen the movie The Commitments?

Joey Steele: No.

Nicky P: It's, it's a '90s movie about an Irish soul band, over in Ireland, and, there's a m- a moment where the, the saxophone player in the band started getting a little too flowery with his solos in the, during a set, and the, manager's in the, in the bathroom next to him was like, "If you wanna wank, use that thing in your hand, not your sax."

Joey Steele: Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I th- I think there's a-

Nicky P: And it's just very, it's very that idea...

Joey Steele: I think there's so much music that's just about like look, "Hey, look at me," and that's cool. That's interesting art or whatever, and that could be put on a wall. That's not music to me. That's not a connection to me. That's about a connection.

But maybe, maybe I'm being shortsighted with those things, but like, you know, I've always tried to come at music with what is the connection I'm trying to make, and for me, the tone or the emotion or the feeling is like the, the thing by which I'm making that connection. And the connection in All Torn Up is anger.

I was angry, and I wanted to connect with other people about their anger, so the performances are angry. It's my angry side. It's my... There is not a lot of joy in that. There's just like fight, which is mostly who I am. And then with Cop Out, and that, that, that is like, you know, the guys in that band, we all disagree.

I try to write lyrics that respect all of them and that respect our disagreements, not despite them, but because of them. So I really focus on those, those disagreements or issues or problems or whatever, for the most part. I'm sure they would say I don't, but And Cop Out, the Cop Out is, is, the guitar player Al and I.

It's our band together. And we met, we met as community organizers organizing a festival in New York called Punk Island, which is celebrating its 18th year this year. But we, led Punk Island for o- o- over a decade together, and we met doing that stuff. And so it really is, fun. It's just fun. The band is supposed to be fun.

It's not... It's about, it's about singing along and having a good time and, and the resistance that we're doing, enjoying ourselves as we're resisting. That's not All Torn Up. It was... There's some of that in All Torn Up now, but it's, it's m- gets muddled when it's too much, so. To me, like, it has to be about the connection that you're reaching out for needs an emotional basis.

Not an intellectual one, but an emotional connection. You know, it's not about the ideas as much as it is the emotion.

Brian Pritchard: That's really, I, I love the way you articulated that and, and in listening to it, that, that, that light bulb is going off, right? That I'm going, "Yes." C- Cop Out very much has a, a playfulness to it, right?

System of a Down, stadiums, and bandmates who don't agree on anything [00:14:00]

That, that you're hitting on subject matter that is, weighty and important and is obviously meaningful to you. But, but I, I like the subversive, playful nature of a thing. The, the, there's a, a part of that that always makes me smile, that, that, that, that, that's the, the fun sort of anarchic quality of, of fucking with people.

You know what I mean? And, I think that that's a fun way to get a message across. Personally, I, I, I, maybe a lame, you know, simplistic way of putting it when you say that the, the proverbial spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, right? That it's like, a joyless environment, not that there's not room for it in the world, but I'm just saying for me as a consumer, is not the, the way I, I tend to want to receive my messages, even weighty and important messages.

It's, it's nice to have it with, you know, that, the, the sense of playfulness, if nothing else, because even in the darkest of moments, times, stories, or whatever, I think it's really just necessary to find levity or try to, you know? And, and, so yeah, and I, I, I, I think that that's, it, it's interesting to see you, uh- Have that distinction and it does come across, in the music.

But I, I, I like both of them, but I, un- until you spelled it out

Joey Steele: But I don't, it's not a, it, it's interesting 'cause you came to back to this again. You, you sort of mentioned it before. Like, it's not about, I've never really thought of it as a crowd getting my message. Like, I've never thought about it as, as taking my message to the crowd.

Because if it was just my message, it would be very, very different from what I'm singing about. It's a, it's about, like, creating something together. So it's about, like, meeting somewhere in the middle and going. It's about, like, going somewhere together. And, like, maybe I'm, like, partially le- like leading that direction, but I wanna move together.

Like, not necessarily physically, but, like, emotionally, intellectually, socially, whatever. I wanna, like, move with the crowd, whether they're listening to the music or at, at a show. I wanna move with them. And so, like, yeah, like intellectually I guess I, I wish more people engaged with my content. But I don't think I'm writing, like, particularly cerebral concepts.

I think it's more about, like, in, in All Torn Up, it was about a fight. Like, I want to fight. I wanna fight you. I wanna fight in this room. I wanna fight outside this room. I just wanna fight. And in Cop Out, it's more like Hey, we're doing this together. We're, we're out here changing the world together. We're in this space together as, like, freaks or whatever we are from this society that we don't really wanna be part of, and, like, let's have fun and feel good while we do it.

And it's just a different desire of connection, you know? To, to move somewhere different. But I think it's interesting that you, you haven't, you, you kept saying, like, getting people to give him ideas. I, I think a lot of people probably do see what I do as that way.

Brian Pritchard: Well, no, I, I, I guess to me, what, what, what I'm looking at is that, that, that there is t- somewhat of a, of a distinction.

I was thinking about it earlier even with, like, a band like System of a Down or Rage Against the Machine or gr- groups that, that, like, System of a Down, when they play now, they play stadiums, right? And so you, you got to assume statistically there's no fucking way that they're playing to a stadium full of, people that ideologically are aligned with their values.

It is absolutely out of the question, right? And, and, and so

Nicky P: It's interesting- As a band they're not even aligned on their values.

Joey Steele: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, yeah, amongst themselves. But, but, but, but that was actually interesting to hear you acknowledge that too, like, where I, I, I feel stupid for not thinking of it, but it was like the idea that, that you're not on a, a, a unified front with your bandmates honestly hadn't occurred to me.

You know what I mean? I'm sort of going like, yeah, indeed, I, I, I, I feel like if I look, like, a- at, at a band where the lyricist ultimately is enough of a ship's captain, right? That, that you certainly would, I would, I would assume that nobody involved would be so dramatically at odds with it, with it that they, you know what I mean?

They couldn't stomach it, you know? But, but, but it's interesting that you're-

Nicky P: Right, Brian, so I gotta, I've gotta, I've gotta call bullshit on this one 'cause I've, I've been, I've been in the band with, a room with us as a band, and I know how you And GBB and Noel and Connor all feel, and I've definitely had moments where I wanted to walk out of the room.

Man, I wanna beat the shit out of all those fucking assholes.

Brian Pritchard: Really?

Nicky calls out his own bandmates' political disagreements [00:19:00]

Nicky P: When we're talking, when we're talking about political views, yes.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, oh. I, I'm like,

Nicky P: I'm like, shit. S- but I don't be- but because I don't put, b- but because I don't, we don't put that on Front Street. We deal with emotional content that's not political in nature.

So my point is like, you know, no, I, that and it's absolutely completely separate from what we do as a band, like what my viewpoints are, that kind of stuff, so it doesn't bleed in. So it's, it's just, it, it's amusing to be like, "Oh, how does it not, you know, kind of sneak into the, the lyrics at all there?" And it's like, well, we sometimes just choose not, choose what to put in there.

Brian Pritchard: No, just that I was saying y- y- these are acts where I felt like there was some intention of putting that message on Front Street, and to Nick's point, that's not what we're doing. So that, that, that, that's all. Yeah.

Nicky P: What I'll, what I'll step in here and also say is that like- You clearly definitely come from the punk genre.

Like, it is a very specific type of culture, and it's one of the things that I've alway- I've always fa- been fascinated with Brian at is because I come from a punk scene back where I grew up, and like that's all of my introduction to performance and music was very much jumping around on stage, getting wild, fucking people throwing things at punk houses, dudes getting hit with instruments and shit.

Punk scenes, circle pits, and masculine energy [00:20:00]

Like, that is... So for me, like when I, like when I get, like really, really heartfelt about music, what I... I'm imagining a circle pit in somebody's fucking living room with like some dude with a duct-taped-together microphone on stage screaming his heart out. Like that's, that's how I feel. But like for me, like the politics of it was always kind of incidental.

I, I think at, at the time w- I took for granted that we all kind of had similar ideas. As I grew up, I realized, oh, wow, we all have really different ideas in this room. But for me it's like there's that, that element of the, the, the pit, the circle pit, this... The one thing I will say is probably i- is not the healthiest of it.

It was definitely a great place for young people to kind of come to grips with, say, masculine energy. However, i- if we look at it in the past, that definitely h- unfortunately swallowed up a lot of the room for female voices in those spaces, which I feel gross even sa- I feel gross even saying to myself, but it's, it's the truth.

Like, they- it just, growing up it was not a place for that, just for, for sure. But it's, like the, the, the whole punk thing, it's like, I don't know. It, to me there was an element of, like you said, we're all kind of fucking freaks here, and we're gonna try our best to be accepting of that. And I don't think most people go out of their waves to n- or out of their way to not try and like make waves with the broader w- welcoming, the broader openness of like a scene.

Now granted, there are those bands that do the absolute the fucking opposite, and that is their way of being freaks, but you know, not everybody is all the same when it comes to that.

Joey Steele: Well, I think, I think- Po- like, I think we think of politics in, like, this really, really narrow sense. Like, it's about, like, these explicit conscious ideas, and it is that, right?

It is those things, but it is also how we treat each other. Like, just in our lives, in your band practice, in our interactions, in our gendered or gen- genderless interactions, dancing at a show. All of that to me is politics, consciously or unconsciously. I want people to be more conscious about those things.

I wanna take it to there, and then I wanna, I wanna disagree, and then I wanna change it. I don't necessarily care if they agree with me at all, but I want them to be more conscious of how they're doing these interactions, think of them politically, and then hopefully get down with, with my, worldview. I accept that that is almost certainly never gonna happen, even with the people I most care about in the world.

But I think the... Like, when you talk about in band practice, like, you're disagreeing with your bandmates and you wanna get in fights, I fucking totally appreciate that. I broke my hands a million times at All Torn Up practices early on, just 'cause it, it was so frustrating figuring out how to communicate with someone who disagrees with you so much.

And, like, when we started All Torn Up, we didn't know each other at all. We had never met, so, like, it was very difficult for- to figure out how to interact and write these, like, complicated concepts and stuff. But whatever. All I'm saying is I think, like, punk or whatever scene anyone's in, there are politics, and people do agree politically with the vast majority of people they're around, just as a subculture or whatever.

And so I think just trying to be more conscious of those things and see that those connections that you have with other people are political, and what it is based on is healthy, even if it is, I think, probably wrong. But whatever, you know. Who gives a shit what I think?

Brian Pritchard: The, the, the idea of, of having influence on your environment, right, in, in all of your interactions, that resonates very strongly with me, right?

And, and, and so the idea that in how you move through the world, how you move through environments, in your daily life, it does involve those, those choices, of politics, as you say. I, I, I'm tracking that. I feel like what, what you're describing there. And it's interesting because as you're saying that, I'm going, you know, inside my creative expression, in songwriting, even though I'm using music as opposed to words, right?

When something is only existing as an instrumental piece, that intention is still there. You know what I mean? That, that it is still, wanting to get through to people and wanting to Produce a reaction still, and sensitivity and thoughtfulness and, all, all of those things that, that, that are part of, you know, what I want to broadcast in my interactions moving through the world, absolutely is there inside what, what is being communicated and written just even on a musical level that, that there is this anticipation and hope of, forming that bond, forming that relationship, and having that dialogue with people, right?

And, and even again, to the other side of, of what we discuss on artistic expression on, on, on the movie side, I think that that's what things can do on that side too, is, is, It's, it's amazing when anything that we create can, can resonate emotionally and stir things up inside people. And, Whether that, that's sort of waking them up to, I don't know, like looking at things a different way.

I think that can happen in a, a purely emotional way that's hard to articulate. Just as you, you were talking about, like, yeah, the lyrics aren't always necessary- necessarily cerebral in terms of, like, explicitly being like, "This is my treatise on this concept," you know what I mean? There, there is something sometimes...

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes even as specific s- a- as lyrics are being, there's also something open to interpretation still, and something that's about just pure feeling even inside, you know, the words. So I, I, I do appreciate that.

Nicky P: Well, that ex- it explains his, feelings on propaganda if he hates explicits, like treatises on politics.

The moment between thought and action: Nicky's theory [00:27:00]

'Cause it's, yeah, some of their stuff is just straight that.

Joey Steele: Straight that. And I think that there's a huge pull in punk that wants that, and I think there's a huge pull in punk that hates my bands because we don't do that. And so, like, I think that a lot of people don't understand what we're trying to do because they want us to be like, go out and, like, do a sloganeer.

I'm like, "This is, this is fucking boring." Like, you're gonna connect with my slogan? That's so fucking boring. Like, I, I've done slogans for years. I go to protests and s- stand on a cop car and do a slogan. That's a lot of fun, but that's not what a concert is.

Nicky P: You said the thing in there, you said the thing in there that, I don't know if you'd articulate it the same way I do, and it's, it's about what, I think, certainly where I come from academically, what we're always trying to do is slow down the moment between thought and action.

Most people go through, or this is, like, where the NPC meme comes through, is this idea that fucking people, they're so well societally trained- That they don't have a moment between thought and action. They have just the response that they've been conditioned to have. Whereas if you can take just a f- slow that process down a little bit, take a few moments to think, which it sounds like is a lot of what you want to do is have people just, just take that minute and think of what the hell you're doing in response to the world around you.

And maybe, just maybe, you'll, you'll act and be different than like you are. And, you know, and to me that's like, to me, when I think of the word woke, that's really what the word woke means to me, is j- the people that kind of understand that and accept it, and the people that don't. But that's a word that has a whole bunch of connotations to it now that are just kind of all bullshit in my opinion.

Joey Steele: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I, I'm certain everybody else thinks that I consider myself to be woke. I don't know. I've never used that term. I've never... I don't get it. But, um- Mm... I think that the, I, I agree, Nick, with what you're saying as a concept. I think you're, I appreciate that you're really hearing me. Although I want to like focus on that, you said the, the moment between thought and action.

Joey's counter: speed up, don't slow down [00:29:00]

I wanna like focus on that and like I live my life in that, but I don't wanna slow down. I wanna like take a hand- like a metaphorical handful of meth and then think about that moment between thought and action. Like, I wanna speed up as fast as humanly possible and like just slam our faces as fast as possible into a brick wall, and as we do it, think about thought and, and, action.

And, you know, I think the greatest Amer- person to ever be born on American soil is Malcolm X, and I think one of the reasons he's the greatest person to ever be born on American soil is because when he went to prison, he really like took the, took that moment to think about the relationship between thought and action.

And he kept doing it. And as opposed to a lot of other people who get stuck on thought or stuck on action, like he kept doing both of those things and, like synthesizing it or whatever you, however you wanna call it. Like, he had a method to like get himself out of being stuck on thought or stuck on action.

Malcolm X and the All Torn Up record tradition [00:30:00]

And, every All Torn Up record has always had a, a Malcolm X quote on it because of that. I think that his method's great.

Nicky P: I love him if for- I love him if for no other reason than he, in my opinion, can't cleanly be adopted by either side. Like, his, his politics were never explicitly right-wing or left-wing.

There's parts of them that I think appeal to both sides at times, for sure. And, it, to me, it's, it's the part of the messy nature of politics. Like, I, I hate the idea of, like, a middle ground because, like, I guess I would be more of an anti-politics person, where I stand politically. So it's like the idea of kind of throwing a monkey wrench into what everybody holds sacred is kind of fun or is, feels valuable to me.

It's, it's something that really pushes people to have to fucking think.

Joey Steele: Monkey wrenching, it was an explicitly anarchist concept. I think Edward Abbey wrote a book about it. So there's, there's a whole lot of political workings dealing with monkey, monkey wrenching. But like also Malcolm X, you know, I think he was a complicated force, but, and I, I think he's, whatever.

I think the main thing to think of in terms of what we're talking about is, like, he was forced in a situation where he had to re- he reflected on those, that moment between thought and action and made a difference, made a change. And I think that's what we all need to be doing more. And I think as community organizers, as musicians, like I think it's important for us to reflect on how our songs connect with people and either of those things.

You know, how it pushes them to move, hopefully pushes them to move. Otherwise, the music's probably putting us to sleep, which isn't very encouraging. And then, you know, like how it also encourages us to th- to at least feel, you know, 'cause that's what music is. It's really just, feelings s- to, to me. So, if it's not, if we're not thinking about what we're doing, all those things, it's probably pretty bad.

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm But yeah, I mean that, that-

Brian Pritchard: No, I, I get that, man...

Joey Steele: That, that, that, that reflection with thought and action is super good. Yeah.

Brian Pritchard: I, I, you know, not, not to make too much of like a, an abrupt right turn or whatever, but I, I, I did want to also, just 'cause I'm curious, to touch on the movie side.

You know, that, that, that was another part of our, early interactions was bonding over film. I was, an aspiring filmmaker. I was making movies. You were, a- among... I say among, you were easily the most, amazing raw talent improv artist on screen that, that I ever worked with, right? Y- yes. That, that, that, yeah, you, you, you were amazing, an amazingly talented, entertainer.

But, but I remember watching movies. I remember watching stuff like, Doom Generation, you know, and having sleepovers and, and watching, watching movies with you. I'm curious how all that, fits into your life. You're a very busy person. D- you know, do, do you watch movies for, for pleasure still? And, and how do you pick them when you make time for movies, like, you know, do you...

What's, what's your agenda, so to speak, in, in, in 2026? How does film still fit into your world?

Joey Steele: That is s- what a nice compliment. You know, and, and Nick, Nick was also talking about how I came from a punk place, but Brian and I came from the pl- same place. Like musically and culturally, like we came from the same, geographically, we came from the same place.

You know, like I came mostly from metal. But movies had a far more bigger influence on my life. I mean, I just, I wish I, wish I had talent so I could either sing soul music, which is what I really wish I could do, or make movies, which is also what I really wish I could do. But I don't have any talent, so I make punk music.

It's the best I can do. But, um- Yeah, I mean, I fucking love movies. The only time I'm really happy, like, my real joy is just watching, if I can just watch a movie. You know, like, I j- I just saw, Yeah, I mean, it just like sitting down. What I did, I just, I just turned 45 on Wednesday or whatever, and, the only thing I wanted to do was just, I'm like, "Can I just watch a movie with my wife?"

That's the only thing I really wanted to do, you know?

Nicky P: Good for you.

Joey Steele: Yeah. And it was not Doom Generation. See,

Nicky P: Your age isn't tracking, man.

Joey Steele: It was not Doom Generation. What a horrible movie. I, did you... Brian, you have children. Nick, I don't know if you, you do or don't, but you didn't let your child watch Doom Generation, right?

Like, that, we should not have been watching that shit as a child. What was wrong with us?

Brian Pritchard: No, it, the, it's just so, so, so harsh, in the last 10 minutes, right? It's, it's otherwise actually kind of a cool indie film. And then it gets so, so brutal, heartbreakingly unnecessarily brutal in a way that, uh-

Night of the Living Dead and an eighth grader's political awakening [00:35:00]

Joey Steele: Yeah, the Nazi sexual assault with a Virgin Mary doll.

Like, yeah, that's brutal. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Pritchard: Spoiler alert, bro. Yeah.

Nicky P: I'm a, I'm a, I'm a terrible parent, and I've done everything I can to get my child to watch terrible things because I was watching terrible things too young. Like, I was, I was in eighth grade the first time I read The Dark Half by Stephen King.

And have spent the rest of my life being way too early of an adopter to all of the weirdest shit in the world.

Joey Steele: I remember being in, I guess, I guess it was late middle school or early high school, and I don't know why my parents had just neglected me to the point of not watching the things that I was watching.

It was in the middle of the night and they, for some reason, HBO was playing, was playing Night of the Living Dead, the, the remake. The re- the, what's his name? Can't think... Tom Savini. Yeah, Tom Savini remake. And I remember grabbing my notebook and just, and just, like, immediately being, like, thrust into a political mindset of fascism and gender politics and raci- and I'm like, I was...

I'd never had a, a course telling me these things or a t- we, we grew up in a conservative neighbor- community. There was no one talking about this stuff. There was no one... You know, I was in fucking, like, ninth gra- eighth grade, ninth grade, at the time, and I just like... That comes back to me all the time when I'm making music of just, like, it wasn't heavy-handed full throttle choke of politics, but it was an entertaining film that, like, got you thinking about these dynamics in ways that made you feel about them.

I, that was a transformative moment for me, like a consciously transformative moment for me, and I think I've carried it on throughout my work. I just, I love... I just think movies and art have moved me more than any, like, single political fi- I mean, I, I'm a communist, so you know, I b- I have read Mao, and Mao moves me, but he was a poet.

I mean, like, also, like I just think that movies have the ability to do this in ways that, like, people don't want necessarily to let politics do that to them. As a young person, I would've been like, if someone would be like, "Think about racism," or, "Think about sexism," or, "Think about, homophobia," I probably would've, like, pushed back and been like, "Whoa, you're being real harsh."

You know, but, like, seeing that play out on a screen that Tom Savini was directing, I was like, "Oh yeah, I can see this. I get it. I see what's happening here." And it, it does feel weird, it does feel uncomfortable.

Spike Lee's films as a suburban wake-up call [00:38:00]

Nicky P: More of a John Waters

Brian Pritchard: Guy, but you know, I get the, get the idea. Well, but, but, but both of them honestly, I, you know, th- that, that really again, that resonates very strongly.

Night of the Living Dead, is such a perfect somehow synthesis, and hearing that as, as a, like, a light bulb moment totally tracks. I was thinking about how indeed, like, Spike Lee's run of movies, that were available at that same age, right? High school, middle school. You had, Crooklyn, Mo' Better Blues, Jungle Fever, right, Clockers.

Th- th- these were movies that were not the same as, like, Boyz in the Hood. You know what I'm saying? And Menace II Society as far as from our little, lily-white suburb being some peek into normalization of, of, of Black culture. You know what I mean? Instead of this heightened, bullshit. You know what I mean?

And, and seeing something like Bamboozled, in like 2000, you know, and, was again, like you sit there and go like, "Oh my God, I, I, I live in a neighborhood where you still drive past Lawn Jockeys, and I never clocked it." You know what I mean? Like that, that, that, the Uncle Ben Aunt Jemima of, of, of it all.

I never clocked it, you know? And so, a, a, a, again, things that turn me on to that, a movie like Brokeback Mountain and, and go like, "This is fucking genuinely moving." It was, it was a punchline on, you know what I mean? Like, you know, morning radio shows and, and whatever that, that whole year and, but it was, it was a beautiful, moving film, right?

And, and, yeah. So I, I, I think of a lot of examples where storytelling has absolutely been a vehicle for compassion and sensitivity, while still being entertaining. And Nick and I have certainly talked about times where even being a sensitive, you know, liberal minded person, there's shows where it really just comes down to if somebody is- also, like a talented storyteller or not, right?

Like, sometimes people are so clumsy and heavy-handed with it where they're using their characters as mouthpieces, right? For things where it's like, this doesn't feel real anymore. It doesn't feel like the way human beings talk to each other. It feels like somebody up on a soapbox, right? So it's i- i- it's interesting when artists manage to find and, and strike that right tone that allows them to be, again, coming full circle, is kinda subversive, right?

I- you know, a- a- and

Joey Steele: Well, think about, think about how people make different... How, what changes you've made in your life, right? Think about the times you've changed your mind about politics or, or... I didn't grow up as a communist. I grew up in the same place Richard did. Like, we grew up in a conservative suburb of Cleveland.

Does arguing ever actually change anyone's mind? [00:41:00]

You know, there was no politics around. There... I, I didn't have any experience with politics. My parents didn't vote. If they did, they never talked about it. I had Mike DeWine probably on my grandma's, thing at home at some... I remember her talking about how great he was as American. I don't... N- none of it occurred to me, you know?

But, like, what changed me was the music that I interacted with and the movies that I interacted with that exposed me to other ways of, of thinking and looking at things, until I got to the point where I wanted to look for new ideas myself. And, like, yes, you can argue against someone. You can, like, change someone's mind through arguing, but how often does that happen for you, right?

Like, how often have you been sitting with someone and they argue against you and you're like, "Yeah, you know what? I was racist, yes, and now I'm not, and thank you very much." Like, those moments have happened to me. I have been there, and, and I've been... I've changed through those things, and I've also, like, seen things.

You know, like, I did radical street politics for 10 years where I was on the street just arguing things, and I know that can change people's minds because without it, I don't... We, you know... I j- I know it can change people's minds. But I don't think it's mainly the way people change their mind. I think mainly is by artists relating to you and talking about i- i- important, heavy things that they themselves have dealt with, and that you can connect with them.

And that is what happened to me.

Nicky P: I think, I, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna push back in one way and say I think there's an element of here that you, you perhaps over-embellish. That's the idea of, like I think you put a lot of emphasis on the gravity. Like the, you keep using words, it's you know, like the way that it made you feel, and I think a lot of that you've, you've expressed yourself that, you know, a lot of where you came from emotionally is the anger and that kind of stuff.

John Waters vs. anger as competing strategies [00:43:00]

Whereas, like why I prefer the politics of say a John Waters is because I just don't have the energy for the anger in my life. And for me, the tongue in cheek poking and like, "Let's make a joke about this," and like, "Let's, let's kind of push the, the envelope as far as like what's acceptable," that resonates more with me as far as like when we're trying to...

But it's, it's about sales. It's like not every salesman represent or resonates with every person th- they're trying to sell an idea to. Like, everybody has the way that they need to be sold for the sale to go through, period. Like, that's, that's why King and Malcolm X were very different guys and they have their own people, because what they did resonated very differently with their audiences.

Joey Steele: I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by gravity, of it. Like, you know, these are different emotions. Like you, you're connecting with John Waters, you know, I, I don't know what emotion... I, I don't really like John Waters, so I'm not really sure what connect emotion.

Nicky P: Well, it's a p- it's to, to, to me, like it's the hum- it's the humor, it's the comedy that makes like his ideas accessible to me.

And when you, and, and maybe I'm inferring this just because of the language that you use, like you feel, I feel like you have a very aggressive nature. And you kind of said it earlier when we first was talking, aggressive about the politics and about that. That's what resonates with you. So when you're, the things that are like connecting with you, I feel like you almost put a little more emphasis on the things that like get in your face and force you to kind of deal with shit-

Joey Steele: Sure.

Hell yeah...

Nicky P: As, a- a- as being the way to push things. But like if you do that to me, I'm, I'm gonna just completely shut down. Like, "Yeah, fuck you, guy. You're, you're loud and angry and I don't give a shit what you say."

Joey Steele: Sure. This, but this is my point. Like, you know, your pol- if you, if you come at someone with these pol- I do think- There is a point to this.

You know, like I believe in it. I don't think it is for everybody. I don't think I'm gonna change everybody's minds. I'm not out here to try to change everybody's minds. I do think though, I will bring these politics and these ideas to someone and smack them in the face with it. As h- you know, sometimes literally, sometimes figuratively, and they'll go home and they'll be like, "Yo, fuck that piece of shit, fucking commie fag, fucking whatever the fuck."

You know, and they'll- but they're gonna think about it later. I guarantee it. 20, you know, 30 years I've been doing this, I, I know they're gonna think about it later whether they want to or not. And, because a lot of those people have come back to me 20 years later and be like, "I didn't, I remember you saying that shit, and it, it stuck with me.

I disagreed with you and called the cops on you, and snitched on you or whatever else, but it stuck with me, and you were right or whatever. It made me think." I know it can get people to think. So it's about like how, to put it in your terms, Nick, how do you get people to slow down the moment between thought and action?

How you, how do you get them to get there? Do you use comedy or do you punch them in the face? Or what do you do in order to get them to get to that moment?

Nicky P: Look, if I were, if I were any good at it, there'd be a few less communists in the

Joey Steele: World. Just say that. What does that, what does that mean?

Brian Pritchard: Well, listen, you know, what I, what I, what I love is that I, I heard Joey, touch on the idea of really both, both pieces of that, right?

That what, the even the things that you were, referring to, Nick, I, I remember hearing in the context of an answer about the distinction between two projects, right? So, even, even amongst the, the many bands, just those two are showing two different sides of, of that coin from my perspective, right?

That, that you have All Torn Up, that, that gives you an opportunity to not only have your personal outlet, but, but the hope for, I think all of us with, with our personal outlets, is that you're not alone in the universe and it's gonna resonate with some other people, right? That you've got a frequency that you're on.

The upcoming Bowhead / Puma Thurman tour [00:47:00]

Some other people are gonna resonate, you know what I mean? They're gonna be on that resonant frequency. They're gonna dial in and they're gonna get it. And, and, with Cop Out, you are absolutely taking that other side. It'll, it's like Cop Out is the, the to me, to use the metaphor of film, it is the John Waters of the two, right?

Like that, that it is the one that, that is sitting there, and saying, "We're a community of freaks and weirdos, and isn't it fucking lovely," right? And, anyway, I'm, I couldn't be more excited to, we're gonna, we're gonna go on the road together, Bowhead and Puma Thurman, towards the end of this year.

We're gonna do the, a, a run of shows and, I, I want it to be the first of many because, I'm excited to be entering for the first time in my musical journey, the touring years. You know? 'Cause my kids are, are, are adults, now. My, my daughter as, as we record this, is graduating high school in a week.

My son's a few years out a- you know, and, and, so I feel like the, the, the world of possibilities are opening up. I'm excited and hopeful to, to have, opportunities to collaborate with, with you, man, because I like being around you. I like the idea that we can have, these discussions, during those just hours of sitting around and waiting and doing stuff that, that tend to be part of, of, of booking shows.

It would be, really nice to have an opportunity to spend some time together and, and bullshit about all of the above, you know?

Joey Steele: And, and Bowhead is, is a, is a poli- everything I do is a political band. Bowhead's also, like, very much m- m- similarly in the same genre, similar genre as you guys. It's heavier band and, makes a lot more sense for us to be playing together, I think, than my other bands.

B- and the lyrics are, weird. I mean, they're just super weird. Like, I, I get a chance in Bowhead to write the weirdest songs I've ever had a chance to do, and I love writing them. They're just, like, surreal. We have a song-

Bowhead's surreal lyrics: insects, conjoined twins, Joshua trees [00:49:00]

Brian Pritchard: Wow...

Joey Steele: There, there's a song about, like a race of, insects leaving their, their sh- their shelter from underneath a waterfall and moving to the hollow of a tree.

Like, that's the song. That's the entire song, you know. There's this, there's a song about, conjoined, conjoined twins getting in a car accident after taking a bunch of drugs and, one of them killing the other one and separating themself and, and running away. Like, that's the, that's it. That's the whole song.

So I think, you know, I'm, I love to-

Brian Pritchard: And I love the idea that, like, you might have specific intent around what you're trying to conjure up with either of those examples. But, but, but I love art that is, open to me sitting there and going, "Ooh, what do, what do I think that means, with the, the twins?"

You know what I mean? Like it-

Joey Steele: Totally. I can't imagine what people think when they fucking re- hear that shit, right? Those songs are just totally off, off the charts. I have another song a- about, being a Joshua tree and watching fire roll down a mountain towards you. Like, I don't know what the fuck everybody else is hearing when they, when they hear those songs, but to me, that's what that song's about.

And, I love to be able to just, like, explore those crazy feelings. Um-

Nicky P: I'm feeling that right... I'm feeling Joshua tree right now. Yeah. I'll say that much. Yeah.

Joey Steele: It's, uh-

Nicky P: Whatever the hell you meant by it, I'm feeling it right now. Yeah.

Brian Pritchard: Well, when we have guests on, which is this is only the second time we've done, I, I like the idea that we, we would e- end the episode with people, anybody who's listening getting to hear, an example of your work, you know?

So, well, is there a song that would be okay, for us to, you know, play us out on the episode with from Bowhead or anything?

Joey Steele: Oh, yeah. Well, let's, b- because, because that's what Nick's feeling, so we'll, we'll use, we'll use The Burning, which was off of the last, I don't actually remember which release The Burning was off of.

Outro: Bowhead's "The Burning [00:51:00]

I think it was off the last, Bowhead, selection of songs. We recorded, in Brook- in Brooklyn not too long ago. Fucking great experience. Got to work with, like, a really professional producer. And, I mean, the so- yeah, the song's just about being a, you the listener being a Joshua tree with a grove of other Joshua trees, and the thoughts and feelings of watching the fires sort of, like, roll down a distant mountain and slowly engulf everything you've ever known.

Brian Pritchard: Sometimes it just feels that way.

Joey Steele: That's our whole being right now, for sure. Yeah.

Brian Pritchard: I love it. Dude, I, I, I'm excited. I, I'm so grateful for you taking the time to, to chat with us and, and I r- I'm really looking forward to, to it being an ongoing conversation, so thank you.

Joey Steele: Well, anytime. Anytime, brother.

I love you, Brian. I think you're, I think the world of you, brother, so I'm, I'm down to, to chat, with you anytime, any, any place. And, I, I'm not sure if Nick wanted me to die early in the conversation, but other than that part, this was a delightful conversation.

Nicky P: Oh. No, no. If I wanted you to- Yeah. If I wanted you to die, I could've stopped recording at any point.

Yeah. Yeah,

Joey Steele: Totally.

Nicky P: No. I, uh-

Joey Steele: Other

Nicky P: Than- I, I, for me, I'm, I'm, I'm cherishing the idea that, like, Brian gets to see how much two anarchists can a- disagree about shit.

Joey Steele: Wait till you meet my bass player. Which is

Nicky P: Always a lot.

Joey Steele: Yeah.

Brian Pritchard: Fair enough. Yeah.

Joey Steele: Yeah. Thanks for having me, guys. This is, this is a ple- a pleasure.

Yeah. I love you very much, Brian. Any, anytime, homie.

Brian Pritchard: And we're turning it into music and podcasts for you