Intro: Shows Falling Into Our Lap [00:00:00]

Brian Pritchard: ...from celluloid, and we're turning it into music and podcast for you.

Nicky P: Welcome everyone to another episode of We Came From Celluloid. I am here on this auspicious Wednesday recording with my good friend, the other to the other, Mr. Brian Pritchard. How are we doing today, Brian?

Brian Pritchard: Doing well today. Today is a lovely day full of possibilities.

Nicky P: The possibilities keep coming at us, you know? As much as I may complain at how long people take to get back to me, at least the answer from the band lately has been yes. And we keep having interesting, novel shows kind of fall into our lap. You know, I'll be perusing Instagram, and all of a sudden some guy's playing an accordion, singing a song about how he's looking for a band for a show on a date. And I'm like, "Oh, that's here in town. Let's go see what happens."

Brian Pritchard: Local's a little easier, I feel like. Obviously, we've been suggesting Friday and Saturday dates, which certainly helps. You know, I've been thinking about the intersection between — if I'm so lucky to have my professional efforts pay off in a way that gives me any sort of marketing budget, if I could have us playing shows out of town for crowds of people, I bet that would motivate people in a different way too. You know what I mean?

The Website Overhaul [00:02:00]

Nicky P: Perhaps. At any rate, the gentlemen have been saying yes, and now our October is multi-dates. It's got lots of things going on. We have that one show that got moved to November. December's got some stuff. And you are doing your whole new job thing, and only marginally paying attention to the fact that I am, as of yesterday, mostly done with the complete overhaul of the website. Now I just need to go back and put episodes in there. Podcast listeners, go to wecamefromcelluloid.com. There is now a main page for the podcast that is SEO/AIO juiced. It now has two submenus: one for these morning episodes that me and Brian do, and a link to all of the episodes that are going to be guest episodes. And because I'm trying to grow this little thing, I've got a few bits added to the end of the guests page, where I now have a map — it's being made currently, I haven't finished the actual data input on it — but a map where you can see all the places we've had guests come onto the show from, in different parts of the country.

Brian Pritchard: This is cool. I had seen the new static image, the photo, which I really dig. This is a good-looking website, dude.

Nicky P: Enjoying that it's grown quite a bit. And I can't wait to start growing the actual Puma Thurman side of it. But I want it to be used, 'cause like you said, I'm taking this seriously to try and grow what we're doing here. Even on there, I put an FAQ to see if we can get people interested in doing this themselves, and start their own podcast in other places in the country for their band, to help grow and network and whatnot. So pretty pumped about it.

A Rising Tide, and the Songs We Might Lose [00:04:00]

Brian Pritchard: Having scenes being built and nurtured is good for everybody.

Nicky P: Thanks. I've always been a rising-tide-raises-all-ships guy.

Brian Pritchard: And even just as a consumer, you sit there and go, what music is being lost? I feel like it was Shirley Manson who maybe specifically put that in my head. She's far from the only musician to speak up about this, but she's somebody I follow — the idea that because music's not a viable career, we'll lose a generation of songs. Like, damn, who's gonna be writing the songs then? And how many great songs...

Nicky P: I think the relationship has just changed in that regard, because yes, being a performing live musician is harder than ever. Putting songs out is easier than it has ever been before. We're complaining about Suno pushing out real musicians and things like that. It's like we've made it so easy to make music that now people with no musical ability can make music. Whether it's all quality or not depends on the person trying to connect with it, obviously. So I actually feel really good about that part of it.

No Gatekeepers, and Why You Can't Buy Virality [00:05:45]

Brian Pritchard: The absence of gatekeepers in music and film has been going on 15, 20 years almost at this point, right? And that part is really cool, and there was this idea that cream rises to the top regardless — that things that are meant to cut through the noise will cut through the noise. The going viral of it all has always been such an organic process. It was always fascinating to watch businesses try to use that language. As a professional marketer for a chunk of my life, going out and selling creative work, you'd hear companies sit down and be like, "Well, I want a viral clip." And you'd be like, "Oh, do you? You want a viral clip, do you?" I remember when that Dollar Shave Club commercial came out, I was able to sell some really fun video projects. There's one I'll have to send you the link for if I haven't — Tommy Gun Art Club. We did it as one unbroken take, where this guy speeds up in his car and he hops out and he's doing karate kicks and backflips and he smashes a guitar and he's painting a canvas and stuff. And I was sitting there going, "Yeah, you've got a $200 budget and an interesting idea. Of course we can make fun fucking videos." The going viral — please understand how beyond our control that is. Even at the point that you have money, you can influence exposure, but you can't influence virality. I don't wanna talk over you. What's your response to that?

Stealing the Stand-Up Comedy Playbook [00:07:45]

Nicky P: Well, one of the things I pointed out — and I'm sure you'll agree with this — take a look at how high profile the Tom Segura and Christina P divorce news was. Podcasting, which, the reason I'm so bullish on it, aside from the fact that it is my business — the past 20 years have seen a rise in stand-up comedy. And part of the reason that rise has been as big as it has been is because since 2008, the beginning of podcasting, comedians were the first people to jump on in there. And part of the advertising structure for stand-up comics became building that parasocial relationship with their audience. And I'm like, "But there's no reason bands can't do the same damn thing." Why can't we build that parasocial relationship with our audience the same way that they do? Just rip that page right out of the playbook.

Brian Pritchard: No, it's an interesting concept. I'll tell you what comes to mind — that was true of terrestrial radio, number one, right? Comedians being a staple of the Morning Zoo-type radio land, because they're, "Okay, show up, be funny," in the same way that a good guest on Letterman can show up and be funny. Certainly musicians would get interviewed, but musicians don't have the same expectation necessarily of being personable. I guess there's a little bit of that. But no, I love the idea. The other piece of it is, to fall in love with a comedian's personality on the radio or on a podcast, the idea of going to see them live being a payoff of that personality is maybe that much more direct. If anybody's listening to these episodes and likes us as people, it's still possible that they could listen to our music and go, "Oh, I don't like that. They seem like nice guys. They seem interesting thinkers, but the music doesn't speak to me." In theory, if you like a comedian's on-air personality — I guess they could still be somebody where you go, "Huh, but your jokes fucking suck. How strange is that?" I don't know.

Nicky P: I mean, it's very possible, I suppose. Either way, giving another avenue to try and connect with audience just feels like the easy play.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, no, I love doing it. I love doing it.

Favorite John Cusack Movie [00:10:30]

Nicky P: So, question for you, kind of getting off of that path. I was listening this morning — I bombard you with my Grosse Pointe Blank playing as I'm getting away today. So what is your favorite John Cusack film?

Brian Pritchard: Without overthinking it, The Grifters comes to mind as one that locked him in for me. I saw that movie when I was still young and impressionable, and it still holds up as a powerhouse of a film, but it's very emotionally intense. Grosse Pointe Blank was huge for me. I saw that in theaters, and it's another one that I try not to let a given year go by without revisiting. And Say Anything is one I really adore. But Grifters is the one that popped in my head, and so I said it.

High Fidelity, Angus, and the Lovable Loser [00:11:45]

Nicky P: High Fidelity is probably the one that influenced me the most growing up, and if I'm being honest, probably caused the most damage to my life. Some perhaps negative ways of viewing myself in the world stem from — we'll just say overvaluing some of the character traits of the protagonist of that film. Not exactly setting yourself up for success.

Brian Pritchard: I remember showing that movie to my son, to Ben, at some point during his formative years, and actually being struck by, "Oh, this guy is not a behavioral model in any fucking real..." At least from a relationship perspective, I'm going, "This doesn't fucking fly at all." The record store, the music lover stuff, that's its own separate thing. But the core way that he won't let that girl go on with her life after the relationship ends — there's a lot of shit in there where I'm like, "Oh, he's not really a good dude," in a way that I hadn't clocked as a kid. When I was showing it to my son, I was like, "Don't model anything after this fucking guy other than maybe owning a record store and bullshitting with your buddies."

Nicky P: I won't go so far as to say that he's a bad dude. But what he actually is, is a guy that refuses to get out of his own way and accept his guilt in things. The failure of those relationships is your own failure to grow up, become a freaking adult in at least the ways that you need to be to be valuable to another person. And to me, it was a continuation of the movie Angus and the damage that movie did to me as a kid, where it glorified the lovable loser.

Brian Pritchard: Yeah, I hear you. I remember that being a rough reality check at a certain point, of being like, "Got it. That's fucking straight-up fiction." Nobody's looking for that personality type.

Nicky P: Yeah. And it's like—

Brian Pritchard: Like, "Okay. Let's modify this."

Nicky P: The way I look at it, having gone through a lot of sales pitches and read a lot of books on sales, is you're just kind of making it okay to be an imperfect product in ways that you can easily solve. It's like, I could be a better product. Why wouldn't I do that if it was an option? The fact that I like Dungeons & Dragons doesn't make me broken. It's the fact that I make it okay to be stupid and shitty about stuff. To be petty and vindictive, things like that.

Jack Black, Tim Robbins, and Tenacious D's Deep Cuts [00:15:00]

Brian Pritchard: Sure, sure. Real quick, just 'cause I don't wanna leave my head on the High Fidelity side — Tim Robbins, right, is why you go back to High Fidelity anymore, for me at least. That's reason alone to revisit High Fidelity. It brought me to Jack Black. I was like the rest of the audience — I was shocked to hear that voice come out of that guy and go, "Wow, what a special effect." That was really cool. And of course that part of it has been true to some degree in life, not just for us, but for musicians in general — it's not necessarily personality overcoming it, but talent sure can. Talent can be a thing where people go, "Oh, I didn't realize you had that inside of you. That's quite interesting."

Nicky P: Well, and it's funny considering how many big movies he was actually in before that movie, that that's the one that catapulted him up. Dude — The Jackal, I Know What You Did Last Summer—

Brian Pritchard: Sure. Mars Attacks. He had some little roles.

Nicky P: He had a bunch of roles as we were kids that you don't think anything of, but that one right there is the one that cemented him as Jack Black, and we're dealing with that damage here some 30 years later.

Brian Pritchard: Well, there's the Tim Robbins connection too, man. Going back and re-watching Jacob's Ladder as an adult, a movie I loved growing up — the bathtub scene, stuff like that — there's this moment where you're going, "Wait a minute. That's fucking Kyle Gass. Holy shit." Tim Robbins, Kyle Gass, and Jack Black have been buddies forever. Tenacious D is performing as Tenacious D in fucking Bob Roberts, which I absolutely owned and watched on VHS. I used to buy random shit because—

Nicky P: Also in Bio-Dome, for anyone who doesn't know this.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, wow. I don't remember that off the top of my head. But the Bob Roberts one—

Nicky P: Save the trees. Save the trees.

The New-Release Wall and the Art of the One-Sheet [00:17:45]

Brian Pritchard: Just as a side note, I was thinking about how, as a young movie lover and movie collector, walking the new-release wall, you would get these displays of cover art. Even a mid-level title like Bob Roberts would get a full row of a shelf maybe, where you've got five, 10 outward-facing VHS covers. And that was its own powerful form of pulling you in, the intrigue — especially when you went to the theater and the theaters had the big posters. Poster art in general, as part of the selling piece, is its own fascinating, beautiful art form, the one sheet, right? And then, to go off on a tangent a little bit — what's the one country that's known for making really violent, animated, hand-drawn versions of movie posters that don't really have anything to do with the movie but are designed to lure people in? Do you have any idea what I'm talking about?

Nicky P: No idea. It sounds interesting, though.

Brian Pritchard: I bet I can find it from a few keywords quickly. Vamp for me while I remember.

Mom-and-Pop Video Stores and the Curation We Lost [00:19:15]

Nicky P: While we're continuing in this direction, one of the things I wanted to note — it's funny that you mention that, 'cause I grew up in small towns that didn't have Blockbuster. I grew up with a mom-and-pop video store — as far as I know, at least until 2011, we still had an independent video store in the town I grew up in. In college, we had Papa Rob's over in Edinboro, Pennsylvania. So I'm used to, like, you might have had four or five on the new releases, but—

Brian Pritchard: The Blockbuster showcase thing — it wasn't big enough to have that.

Nicky P: Yeah, it wasn't that big. The footprint of our video store was like an eighth of a Blockbuster, so every inch was super important. And a lot of those old places, man, they took so much pain in how they curated what was in the video store. The people that tended to run those places are guys like you and me that just absolutely loved movies and what they offer people. So how do you choose your own children is kind of what it becomes after a certain point. The one thing that in some ways is nice about the internet is that the access to practically anything is there if you want it. However, man, losing the curation of someone you trust is wild.

Ghana's Hand-Painted Posters, Dressed to Kill, and the Promise and the Payoff [00:21:00]

Nicky P: That is amusing. What is this?

Brian Pritchard: This is a poster for Sinners, right? Which you've seen. So why is Vampire in Brooklyn and Blade and a helicopter and samurai swords on it? I sent you the link to an Instagram page, but it's Ghana, G-H-A-N-A, the country of Ghana, that is known for this hand-drawn movie poster style. You can go down an amazing rabbit hole of how they will promote a 13 Going on 30, but suddenly it's just like — what is this? It's just hilarious. It's taking the one sheet to a crazy extreme. I don't know why this one jumped into my head, but Brian De Palma's Dressed to Kill poster — can you think of what that image is?

Nicky P: It's been a long time.

Brian Pritchard: It's a pair of stockinged legs in the foreground, and then some figure in a hat or whatever in the background. It's not a moment from the movie. The villain that they show isn't really the villain in the movie. It doesn't have anything to do with anything. But that movie was really successful, and you go, well, to whatever degree the ad campaign, especially in 1980, would have contributed to that. This one sheet doesn't really mean much of anything in and of itself, other than you sort of go, "Okay, I'm in." It's got all the promise of intrigue. Imagery obviously is powerful that way, and where that's connecting, even though it took some twists and turns, is the idea of the promise and the payoff. When you hear a comedian on the radio and they're funny, you go, "Oh, the way Jim Norton's mind works — when I hear him on Opie & Anthony and he makes me laugh, I assume that that mind, taking it into writing joke forms..." You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, okay, what do you got?

Nicky P: I like that he's a degenerate in the ways I like people to be a degenerate.

Comedian Memoirs, Brian's Mom's Book, and Journaling [00:23:30]

Brian Pritchard: Yeah, and just shameless about it. He's grown more and more impressive to me over the years. I used to read his books back in the day. I remember taking one of his books on the road with me, being in Florida, poolside with the fucking Jim Norton book.

Nicky P: What were his books on? I've never seen one.

Brian Pritchard: Autobiography stuff. Essays. The way a lot of comedians will combine recollections with a funny anecdote. I read and loved Seth Rogen's version of that recently, called Yearbook, and it had a mix of Nicolas Cage anecdotes and childhood hilarious hijinks stories. I was talking to my mom the other day — she's writing her memoir, and she was telling me about the framing device she was using. She's been an artist her whole life, so she's got these different pieces — quilts. People will hear quilts and think blankets, like a log cabin quilt, a pattern design sort of thing. She quilts the way painters paint. She's using different fabric and things to create these images. She's done it in a bunch of different mediums, like shadow boxes and stuff. But anyway, she was talking about using a different piece of art as the framing — each chapter would be named after a piece of art and start with the description that would normally appear on the tag in a gallery underneath it, like, "Acrylic on canvas, 20 by 40," all the technical specs. And I was just like, "Fuck, I can totally see that as a reader. As a consumer, yes, I like the way that feels. Fucking run with it." But yeah — are you a journals or a diary type guy? Ever were, or continue to be?

Nicky P: Absolutely. I haven't done it in a while, and frankly I'd like to get back into it. But certainly during the time period in which I fancied myself a wannabe horror writer, I was definitely journaling — going over all the stuff that I would write, the stuff that I was reading, watching, et cetera. While I was reading, I'd do commentary on things, but any word I came across that I didn't know, I'd have to go look it up and put the definition in there for myself. So I'd force myself to do the labor of actually learning it — hence why I do have a stupid vocabulary. Especially when some of the things you read are from the 1800s, so I have a very good grasp of archaic language in some senses. So yeah, I love journaling. I wish it wasn't so time-consuming. It was a part of my day — just go sit at Perkins and read some books and eat lunch. So, some pretty long lunches back in those days.

Throwing Out the Old Journals, and Everybody's Worst Moment [00:27:30]

Brian Pritchard: This memory popped into my head having that breakfast with my mom, where she was talking about what she was working on. I do have a memory of finding and getting rid of some journaling-type stuff from when I was maybe 18, 19 years old, just 'cause it was so uncomfortable to revisit even a few years later. "Oh God, I don't want this sitting in some fucking drawer." I fucking hate this version of me, and I made it go away.

Nicky P: Mine don't sit in a drawer, Brian. Mine are literally on a shelf where anyone who comes into my house can read them.

Brian Pritchard: Yeah. I do remember, in fact, somewhat scrubbing the record one day of a few things that I felt embarrassed about, or so much shame. And I don't even remember exactly what it was. I just remember the feeling of going, "There's nothing in here that I wish to hang on to." It's not like I feel that way about everything by any stretch, but I do remember having at least one collection of stuff where I was just like, "God, this is sad and painful." And not even embarrassing — "There's nothing here that I wanna be reminded of even." I think it was just about feeling sad and lonely. So yes, I can acknowledge I've had moments where I felt some version, for me, of depths. And I qualify it that way because I remember, as an angry young man in middle school, maybe seventh, eighth grade, having an argument with a pretty popular girl named Lauren. Something about that argument, where I ended up being like, "Oh, everything's so fucking easy for you. Sure, you're the pretty, popular girl, so it's all rainbows and fucking sunshine." And I remember her sitting there and being like, "You don't know what you're talking about." And it's not even that it's the exact quote, but the sentiment I took away from that interaction was that everybody's worst moment — you ask anybody, "What's the saddest moment that you've ever experienced? What's the angriest you've ever been?" How do you then put some weird qualifier on it of going, "Oh, got it, so you've experienced extreme sadness, extreme pain, but it couldn't have been real, because you have an easy life"? That's fucking horseshit. Anybody's worst moment would, in my mind, still give them some insight into the breadth of human experience.

Privilege, "Woke," and Whether Word Origins Matter [00:31:00]

Brian Pritchard: Where that gets a little complicated — at risk of going on a rant — is when people talk about... there's a term that's escaping me at the moment that's overused... where you have an easier time being a man in the world, an easier time being a white man specifically in the world. Privilege, yes, the idea of privilege — even to the extent of the word woke, I feel like the word privilege has ended up being so buzzword, attached to a movement and politicized, that it ends up getting diluted. But for both of those concepts as I heard them, I felt like they resonated with me in a human way that to me wasn't about politics. The idea of privilege as a concept of going, "Please have some understanding that the way you move through the world, the way I move through the world, and the way the world responds to me can be different than the way it responds to other people." Now, applying better, worse, different values — privilege almost does come inherent with a suggestion of it's a better experience. But there's aspects of that that are fucking hard to contest, where you go, "Yeah, generally speaking, I don't feel like people are regarding me with suspicion when I move through the world." But I've heard other people talk about their experiences that way, where who am I to be like, "What are you talking about? That's not what it's like to go shopping." It's like, "Fuck you, dude. Of course it is. You haven't felt people's stares, and people following you." And it's going, "Oh, huh. Shit, no, you're right. I never clocked that as what it is for you to be you just on an average day." So anyway.

Nicky P: The only thing I would contend with is that by nature the idea of that is collectivizing, which I think is stupid.

Brian Pritchard: The idea of what is collectivizing?

Nicky P: Yes, I can look at it and say that privilege exists, for sure. But does it do me any value to put groups of people together? Immediately — you complain about stereotyping, and then they immediately do the exact same thing with the word privilege that stereotyping is.

Brian Pritchard: No, to me the simple takeaway is, "Oh, got it. I guess I can be more sensitive." When other people are talking about, "Hey, this is a fucking frustrating thing that's going on," to not be a dick and go, "That's not important just because it doesn't happen to me." I think the reason a lot of that stuff comes up is, if it's not your own lived experience, it's easy to dismiss it. And somebody else is going, "Motherfucker, it's important. You have no idea what you're talking about." And you're going, "Huh, I guess you're right." Because we can be part of the solution, and people wanna mobilize people to be part of the solution.

Nicky P: And if that is the way it was ever intended, Brian, I would actually agree with you. The problem is I've done—

Brian Pritchard: Of course it is. What do you mean, if it's ever intended? Of course it is.

Nicky P: No, that's the point. It never was. I've done too much reading on the history of those words.

Brian Pritchard: Fuck the reading. I'm talking about interpersonal intention and interaction — that fellow human beings have had a desire to have their lived experience be heard. That's factually fucking true. The way that they've done it—

Nicky P: Brian, there is an entire section of philosophy called phenomenology that studies exactly what you're talking about. I'm very well versed in it. But the particular school of thought—

Brian Pritchard: No, but I just don't like when intellectualism is meant to trump fucking human experience. That, to me, is an argument that I don't like going down. That's all.

Nicky P: No, I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. Yes, you're absolutely correct. But just so we're clear, the origins of that term were not honest and nice. They come from a school of thought that was absolutely using them as part of a let's-fuck-with-society system. The people that came up with the idea of it didn't want it for good. They wanted it to break things apart, not bring people together.

Brian Pritchard: The terms woke and privilege, specifically?

Nicky P: Specifically. It's a legal term from a particular school of thought out of Germany — Frankfurt, Germany, in like the 1919s and shit like that. My argument is only that I know too much about the history.

Brian Pritchard: Do you feel like most people using those terms in the modern age are using them in the context of fucking ancient Germany, dude?

Nicky P: Well, but that's the problem. Most people don't use the terms that way. There are people that still intend them and use them. You get people that don't understand the history of stuff talking in a way that allows bad actors to do things with people who think they're being good people, virtuous people — they're being kind of taken for a ride, because they're using language that means something they don't know it means.

Brian Pritchard: What I'll add to that, though, is that language has that problem regardless of any official definitions that may exist. I'm going a slightly different route to say that language in general ends up having a somewhat subjective experience anyway. The way I use certain words is personalized to me and my experience. So even though you and I both speak English — setting aside for the moment the truth that I do understand certain words and their usage have specific origins and intentions, and how that gets repurposed — there's this other overlay that communicating in general is complicated. The way everybody uses all words, not just invented political words, is already fucking hard enough, where we just have to do our best to understand the intention of what's being said. So that's where I'm not hung up in a moment when somebody's using woke or privilege in a conversation. Context fucking matters. I'm trying to just listen to anybody in any situation and infer from the words and the language what I think they're trying to communicate. And to your point about good people — doesn't intention matter, somewhat?

Nicky P: Okay, so you keep using the word political. It's not political. It's legal. Those words mean things in a legal context that you may be unaware exists.

Brian Pritchard: Woke has a legal definition?

Nicky P: The particular school of education — I believe critical theory is what it comes from — was created by lawyers, and it means something in court. And the more people who use those terms that have meaning in that world, not realizing that meaning exists, it causes some issues culturally.

Brian Pritchard: I guess. I don't know, man.

Nicky P: Well, just remember, Brian, I'm with you. How many times have I given my speech about the fact that any of us can communicate at all, the fact that everything means something to us personally? I'm the biggest person in the world to push that. My thing is also that words have meaning in different contexts, and sometimes that can cause issues with something being used colloquially versus its intended use that still exists on the books, but you don't necessarily know it. Either way, not the most important thing.

Nicky vs. Litterbugs [00:40:00]

Nicky P: What I was getting around to saying — you wanna see me have a Christian Bale moment, to bring it back? We're talking about seeing people in their worst moments in life, the worst that they could possibly be. Hang out with me for the first 10 minutes after I see somebody litter. You may or may not like me as a person, because I 100% am okay with murder — watching somebody litter and go, "Yeah, okay, they can be killed. I have no problems with this," for at least the first 10 minutes after it happens. So glad that I don't have a camera following me around to watch me get pissed off every time somebody drops a cigarette butt out of their car.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, yeah. All right. Well, we all have hills to die on, I suppose.

Nicky P: Yeah. I don't even know what it is.

Semiotics, "Discipline," and the Words We Load Up [00:41:00]

Brian Pritchard: I like interacting with new people, and in my personal and professional life I've had a lot of cause to be meeting somebody new for the first time and trying to get a read on people. I tend to really see the best in people and assume the best in people — until proven otherwise, somebody has to really be giving off a shitty energy for me not to find something endearing about them. I remember having an interesting conversation with an electrician friend of mine who has a brilliant mind, and there's a term for what we were talking about — I'll maybe text him and find out what it is. But there's a whole school of thought around the way, as I was saying before, we infuse certain words with certain meanings, and how that can cause miscommunication in interpersonal relationships. I find it to be an interesting topic.

Nicky P: Semiotics?

Brian Pritchard: Maybe, maybe. It's not necessarily a thing where I'm going, "Now that you've said it, I remember that word." But maybe.

Nicky P: Semiotics is the study of meaning in symbology and language. You'd do a semiotic analysis of something — you'd look at what are they actually trying to do and say with the language, and does the contextual symbology affect how it's being said, how it's being interpreted depending on the audience, things like that.

Brian Pritchard: I'll use a specific example just to confirm that this is what you're thinking of. The word discipline for me is loaded with certain meanings and emotional weight when I say, "You know, I really need to get more disciplined." You might hear that, and based on how you use that word in your own life and in your own mind, understand my meaning incorrectly. Even though there's a dictionary definition that we both understand, it's the emotional weight I've applied to it. Discipline has an emotional weight to me that comes with compromising spontaneity and giving up fun. And somebody else might go, "What the fuck are you talking about? Discipline means success. Discipline means efficiency and perfection." So me saying I've gotta get disciplined, somebody else might nod and go, "Nice." And I'm going, "What? I said I have to get disciplined." And they're going, "I know. Nice." I'm going, "What the fuck?"

Nicky P: Well, or depending on their kinks, maybe they're thinking—

Brian Pritchard: No, I said disciplined, you dick. And they're like, "I heard you."

Nicky P: In the same vein, you're thinking, "Oh, discipline's like getting slapped, getting spanked for doing something bad." And the same guy is going, "No, we're on the same page. Totally all about getting slapped, getting spanked."

Brian Pritchard: Whatever. Yes, exactly. But I'm just saying, language is already so fucking tricky that way, let alone trying to get into, "Wait a minute, there's a legal definition of discipline." It's like, get the fuck out of here. I'm just trying to talk to this guy right now.

Nicky P: Well, a big determining factor — musicians inherently have a vocabulary and a way that we discuss things that is different than people who aren't musicians, and things like that trickle into our normal pattern of talk because it's such a big part of our day. Those meanings start building context, and we'll use them in ways that are perhaps not linguistically accurate. Most people can usually infer, 'cause they've met a musician or two, but they won't have the same weight carried in how a musician would use those terms when talking to each other.

Brian Pritchard: Abstract language. Yeah.

Nicky P: I don't know that this definitely gets into semiotics, but semiotics would definitely cover all of that as well.

Soderbergh, Benicio, and the Jam Session That Could Never Work [00:46:00]

Brian Pritchard: Interesting. Abstract language in the arts is so cool. I love hearing the way directors and actors talk about their relationship with each other, and how you dial in what somebody wants out of a moment. I was listening to the commentary track for Traffic, and Soderbergh was talking about his first day working with Benicio. He was pointing out a certain scene and going, "This was actually our first day of work, and it turned out great." But that's always such a tense moment of feeling each other out. I remember trying to jam with a drummer that I really liked when I heard him play with his band. We would talk about starting a band together, and I borrowed an amp from Noel and stuff like that for this new project I was starting. I got through one session with the guy, and I was packing up my gear being like, "We both understand that this could never work, right?" It's not like I hated the guy. Anyway.

Brian's New Podcast With His Dad, and Outro [00:47:30]

Nicky P: Oh, one last question for all of you out there — hopefully you have an answer. Did you get a chance to listen to the first episode of the Singer or Songwriter Storyteller podcast?

Brian Pritchard: No. Is it out? It's released to the world?

Nicky P: It is out. Dude, I told you it was going live. It went out on Monday.

Brian Pritchard: That's amazing. No, I didn't know that.

Nicky P: We've still got some production things, as far as the treatment, to discuss. But I wanna hear what people actually think about it, 'cause I'm very happy and proud of you guys for putting this out. It's something that I couldn't do with my own dad — or at least if I tried, it would be very different, 'cause we don't share the being-a-musician thing. At the very best, my dad's a music appreciator. It's always entertaining for me to watch you two have these discussions about songs, and how music interweaves into both of your lives. I'm a fan of the discussion, people.

Brian Pritchard: Yeah. No, I'm excited. Thank you for that headline.

Nicky P: Speaking of which, your dad is waiting in the wings to start the recording of your next episode, so let me hit stop recording. People, head on over to pumarocks.com, or wecamefromcelluloid.com more specifically for our stuff here. Have a look around, tell me what you think. Tell us how we can get better. Just communicate and tell me anything. I need the feedback. I don't really, but if you have some, I'd love to hear it. So thanks for checking us out again, folks. Take it easy.

Brian Pritchard: ...Celluloid. And we're turning it into music and podcast for you.