Where's Your Energy Going? Jeremy Jones on AI Show Posters and Bands That Phone It In | We Came From Celluloid 027-G

Intro: Meet Jeremy 00:00:00

Brian Pritchard: From celluloid, and we're turning it into music and podcast for you.

Nicky P: Welcome, everyone, to another fine episode of We Came From Celluloid. I'm Nicky P, here today with my brother from another mother, as always, Mr. Brian Pritchard. How we doing today, Brian?

Brian Pritchard: Excellent, and good morning.

Nicky P: We are joined this morning by our good friend Jeremy. How are you doing, Jeremy?

Jeremy: Pretty good. It's the first time I've been up this early in a while.

Nicky P: If it makes you feel any better, I don't think either of us is excited about being up, and we do this every Wednesday.

The Power of a Good Scene: A Paul Rudd Palate Cleanser 00:00:45

Nicky P: So I wanted to start today out with a little anecdote, because we talk movies on the show a lot, and it's about the power of a good scene. Somehow, you know, the algorithm — they want you to be furious all the time. And so a reel pops up this morning, and for me it was replaying the highlights of every hateful thing anybody said on the internet about certain people during COVID, making me really, really angry. And then I flipped off, all rage-filled, 'cause that's what the algorithm was. And it goes to just a clip of the scene of Pete talking to Chuck — Paul Rudd — in the movie Forgetting Sarah Marshall. And it's just Paul Rudd being the silliest, happiest surfer moron. And I was like, "How can I be mad when that guy is doing this in the world?" You know? There's nothing to be pissed off about. That's just goddamn funny. And that 20 seconds or whatever it is of that silly movie just immediately improved my mood after that barrage of insult they threw at me beforehand. So I just thought it was worth mentioning, since we talk movies on here — they're pretty powerful things, and sometimes that's a good thing. Otherwise, I could've spent the rest of my days just brooding over that first video.

Jeremy: Yeah, that's always good when stuff like that can change your emotions real quick, especially if you're gonna have a bad day, or you're having one.

Brian Pritchard: A little Paul Rudd palate cleanser is good for the soul. And it's funny — I think part of what's inherent in a moment like that, a moment of silliness especially, is that it's nice to see people cut loose and be part of self-expression.

The Sound Guy's Vantage Point 00:03:00

Brian Pritchard: Jeremy, we met you through your role as the guy who books bands and runs sound and can record and do live audio for the Maple Grove. It's a venue I've really enjoyed playing, and I've enjoyed our experience working with you. I've also thought about people in your position as having such a unique vantage point, in terms of the number of acts that you see in any given week, individuals or groups that are putting it out there, from all walks of life, from all sorts of genres. What's that like? Do you still find moments where you're blown away and moved by something? Do you love it? Are you tired of it? How do you feel about that world?

Jeremy: Yes to all of that. Like you said, I get to deal with different artists, different genres, and I love it. There are times where I'm blown away. Sometimes I don't know what to expect the first time I work with an artist or band. Like you guys — I didn't know what to expect the first time I booked you. It's always exciting when you do find stuff that blows you away, music-wise. And it's not necessarily the genre that blows me away. It's kind of what Nick talked about at the beginning, where he watched that clip and it uplifted his mood. There's bands that do that in different ways, and it's not necessarily because it's the genre I like, you know what I mean? They just have something that they were able to do. I love what I do, and it's also very frustrating at times, but there's lots of stuff like that.

Nicky P: I was gonna ask, how do you deal with being known as the guy that everybody hates? You know, "Oh, there's the guy with the bad mood. It's the sound guy."

Jeremy: I just go about my day how I normally would. Like you said, you have your ups and downs with moods. There's some days where I don't care, and then there's other days where it can take a toll on you. But I try not to let it get to me personally, if that makes sense.

Nicky P: Well, do you like to play into the stereotype a bit? I mean, you do have that gruff, bearded, angry-man exterior going on, so it's like, "Stay the hell away from my booth, boys."

Jeremy: I might do that jokingly, but you guys know how I am. I'm usually chill and very down to earth to work with. And that's all I'm looking for when I'm working with artists — just to be chill and down to earth so that we can both do our thing for the night and have a nice, successful night. 'Cause who wants to go play a show that's supposed to be a nice, fun time, and then you get there and have a horrible night just because of people's bad attitudes?

Everyone's an Expert: The Bar Speaker Request 00:06:30

Brian Pritchard: Nick's comment made me laugh too, as far as being the guy everybody hates. It's not even that everybody hates the sound guy, but I have to imagine it's a profession that, more so than many others — I don't know how many other jobs have such a barrage of subject matter experts coming up to them and tweaking their work. Where else in the world do people have to deal with somebody who has no clue coming up and going, "This is what's going on. You fix it"? I imagine there's a lot of that too.

Jeremy: Yeah. Actually, the other sound guy that works there with me, Darren, was telling me a story about the last show he did. Some guy sitting at the bar told him he should turn all of the front-of-house speakers toward the bar so that he could hear it better, instead of moving more into the front area. It's just funny to hear stuff like that, 'cause it's like, where did you come up with that, and why?

Nicky P: Well, in fairness, your heaviest drinkers are generally gonna be the guys at the bar, and they're the ones you do need to cater to, because you wanna keep them there drinking heavily. So you may find this a modest benefit to the bottom line if you do that. Not to sound quality, but the bottom line.

Jeremy: He was at the part of the bar, though, where you're basically already at the side of the stage — where we keep that little water jug. So it's never gonna sound that good right there compared to being in front of everything.

Accidentally Becoming the Face of Maple Grove 00:08:30

Brian Pritchard: I'm curious — how long have you been with Maple Grove specifically?

Jeremy: Since about October of 2019.

Brian Pritchard: Got it. And it's not that it's your venue, but you're the guy.

Jeremy: No, no. I've accidentally become the face of it. It's funny, because the people that are older that do know the actual owner, they think it's him doing all the social media, when it's really me. There's been times where people are mad at me and they go to complain on social media, and I'm just laughing, 'cause it's like, "Yeah, it's me that's seeing it," and they think it's gonna go above—

Brian Pritchard: They're trying to throw you under the bus to you.

Jeremy: Yeah. But it's going to me, and my boss probably isn't gonna care anyway what their complaint is, 'cause he's happy with what I'm doing there. Next year is gonna be the 30th anniversary that he's had that club.

Brian Pritchard: Wow. That's very cool. That's a good run.

Retro Gaming: Six NES Consoles and Final Fantasy VII 00:10:00

Brian Pritchard: You and Nick — my physical media shelves, I have one I'm pointing to off-screen, another one in this room, and a huge collection upstairs. Nick's got his big wall behind him. I know you mentioned before we started that, as much as we get into the movies and music intersection, you're a big gamer, right? That's more your passion. If I'm seeing correctly behind you—

Nicky P: I was gonna make the comment. Don't let him fool you. Those are video games, not DVDs.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, yeah, no doubt. But it looks like I'm seeing the progression. You're into the vintage stuff, different systems. You a Nintendo guy? All of the above? What are you into, man?

Jeremy: All of the above. I think I probably have four to six NES consoles. I was collecting stuff, and at one point I just had people that knew me that were like, "I just wanna get rid of this. You can just have it." That's how I ended up with like six Nintendos. Some of them work better than others.

Nicky P: How many Dreamcasts do you have?

Jeremy: None. I would like to get a Dreamcast, though. You mentioned DVDs — you can see part of my TV in the background, but on the other side of that media shelf, one of the squares is filled with some DVDs.

Brian Pritchard: See, but even DVDs, I can tell that's not your thing. I'm like, "I've got my 4K Criterions," you know?

Jeremy: No, honestly — video games are kind of my way that I get entertainment, the way people watch TV or movies.

Brian Pritchard: No, sure. Zero judgment. Go ahead, tell me more.

Jeremy: I was gonna say, recently I've been replaying Final Fantasy VII — the original — just 'cause it's got a great story and it's gonna take a while to get through.

Nicky P: I rebeat the original a couple of months ago.

Storylines Everywhere — Even in Sports 00:12:15

Brian Pritchard: I wish that I engaged that way. I'm grateful for the fact that I can still be swept up in a movie at my age. For as many as I see, I still have moments where I'm successfully getting out of my own head and locking in on the characters and the story that's going on. And that's such a fucking victory for me. I wish that I had that relationship with other things, like video games. I just don't. But whether it's what you described, going back to Final Fantasy because of the storyline — I love when I hear people talk about that. That's still an interesting through line wherever you find it. Even my buddies who are hardcore sports dudes — when they talk about their subject matter, they're still talking about storylines. They're sitting there being like, "Did you know that guy on that team and the other one on the other team used to be on the same team back in college? They were brothers, and now they're enemies." And you're going, "Oh, the stakes are high today."

Nicky P: Me and my nerd game people always used to bust on our sports friends. Like, you guys and all of your pre-game, and literally taking off work so you can watch the draft and memorizing all the stats. It's like, dude, you might as well just do that for dragons and warriors. It's more entertaining to me.

Gaming to Decompress, The Long Walk, and "Most New Stuff Is Garbage" 00:14:00

Brian Pritchard: So the video game side is more of a pleasure piece? I feel like you've at least been kicking around the idea on social media of trying to do more in that space, or is it just for decompressing?

Jeremy: Oh, I use it to promote audio work, like for myself.

Brian Pritchard: Oh, I'm sorry, I meant video games.

Jeremy: Oh, you're talking about doing that. I guess it would just be mostly decompressing. I do watch movies here and there. Me and the girlfriend watched — what was that movie? It just came out. It's based on that one Stephen King short story. They're walking the whole time.

Brian Pritchard: Sure — The Long Walk or something. I haven't seen it, but I'm interested.

Jeremy: Yeah, The Long Walk. We just watched that. It wasn't bad. It was better than what I thought it was going to be, for being a new movie. My whole opinion on movies — most of the stuff that comes out now just seems like it's garbage. And I don't know if that's because we're in the age of Netflix, where just 'cause it's on there, people will watch it even though it's not necessarily good.

Nicky P: I think it depends on what you watch. If you watch a lot of corporate stuff, inevitably it's so watered down and has to pass so many check boxes by the time it gets made that anything original or creative or pushing the envelope has been completely sucked out of it. Or it's in a genre where they won't take any chances anymore. What's actually funny is the one space where I feel like you do see good and interesting stuff happening now is in the horror realm, because you've had so many YouTubers come up with these huge followings that they can't tell them what to do, because it's all done independently in the first place. Obviously things like Backrooms, Zach from the Whitest Kids You Know, or Zach Krieger with Weapons, and the new — what's the new video game one?

Brian Pritchard: Isn't it Resident Evil that he's doing a remake of?

Nicky P: Yeah, and I'm gonna be honest, all the trailers for Resident Evil make me really excited to watch the Resident Evil movie. I haven't said that in 30 years.

Jeremy: Yeah, I actually did watch the trailer for that, and I'm interested for when that comes out.

Nicky P: Basically, horror is the only place I see anything interesting happening.

Storytellers in Games: Fallout, Kojima, and Grandma's Boy 00:17:15

Brian Pritchard: Jeremy, is there an equivalent — are there storytelling voices that you follow inside the gaming world? When I first heard a couple Queen songs at age five, I wanted to know everything else these storytellers in the musical realm did. You see Goodfellas and you go, "What else has Scorsese done?" When you say you like the story of Final Fantasy VII, are you looking at the credits and then trying to follow people? Is there a version of that in your world?

Jeremy: Oh, yeah, there definitely is. One of the things I thought was interesting — I found out, this was a long time ago, when they were making the Fallout games, some of the people that had to do the story lore would literally take mushrooms and get baked out of their mind for weeks, and then come up with the back lore for the setting. I thought that was interesting, that that's their job. They basically get to be stoned all day and then come up with this world. But yeah, you'll have that. Obviously you have your — I guess you would call them rockstar game developers — like Kojima. And there's other people like that too. It all depends, 'cause in that world, sometimes it's not even the story that's why the game's played. Sometimes it's the development—

Brian Pritchard: The design, the aesthetic. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And I'm laughing at myself, because my biggest frames of reference even for the concept you're talking about are in cinema and television. One is the movie Grandma's Boy, which at least was about a video game company and the rockstar developer at the head of it.

Bandersnatch, Kimmy Schmidt, and Choose Your Own Adventure 00:19:30

Brian Pritchard: And then I'm thinking of — did either of you ever watch the Black Mirror Bandersnatch episode, where it was like a choose-your-own-adventure style? And it's gone now.

Nicky P: I gave up on Black Mirror by that point. They'd gotten so bad.

Brian Pritchard: Well, where it related was that Will Poulter played a rockstar game developer type, and that character popped up again in another Black Mirror episode. Netflix very briefly tried a thing — and I wonder if the Kimmy Schmidt one is still there — but with Black Mirror and with their other property, Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, they tried to gamify the viewing experience. You'd be watching a scene, and at the end of the scene it would create a branch system and go, "Do you want the character to choose to go shopping today, or will he stay on the bus?" And it gives you the option. I went through it three or four times and had dramatically different experiences. I thought it was pretty cool.

Nicky P: I'm curious when this happened, because I love Kimmy Schmidt, and I had no idea this ever happened with that particular property. That I actually would've watched.

Brian Pritchard: It was the wedding episode, and Daniel Radcliffe popped up. I only did that one once, but again, at multiple points in the story — did either of you ever read the Choose Your Own Adventure books? I suppose we're all probably close enough in age for that to be true. I thought that was such a wild concept as a kid: "If you want him to go this way and get in the car, flip to page 76 to see what happens next." Just really interesting versions of storytelling.

Jeremy: Yeah, and it's interesting you bring that up, because that's part of the reason I think I like playing video games with stories so much. Instead of reading a story, you're experiencing it. And you get to do stuff as the character that—

Nicky P: At the very least, you get to react to it. You get to be like, "Oh."

Jeremy: Yeah, you get to react to some of the stuff that's going on. So to me it feels more like an interactive kind of storybook at this point, for some of the video games.

BioShock Infinite: "It's Cinema in Itself" 00:22:30

Nicky P: I'm not a big video game person myself. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned on here before, I haven't played anything since Civilization IV stole two weeks of my life. But from time to time, if there's a really interesting franchise, I'll watch some of the gameplay playthroughs. One of which — it's the one that normally takes place underwater, I think — BioShock Infinite.

Jeremy: Oh, BioShock, okay.

Nicky P: That's one I always come back to. I've watched a couple different playthroughs with different endings to BioShock Infinite, because how that game ends is very dependent on which choices you make. And the storyline was just so amazingly written. Frankly, it's cinema in itself.

Jeremy: Is that the one where it touches on alternate universes?

Nicky P: There are certainly alternate timelines. If this happens, this does. And aside from those games already having a cool 1950s-meets-the-1800s aesthetic, you start adding that weird sci-fi angle on top of it, and it just makes it so cool.

Jeremy: Yeah, 'cause the one I'm talking about is set in, we'll say, the early 1900s, but it touches so much on quantum reality — people wouldn't really understand much back then if you tried to explain it in the simplest quantum terms. They'd just look at you like, "What?"

Research Deep Dives: Red Dead, Rockstar, and Kubrick 00:24:30

Brian Pritchard: To your point about somebody getting paid to eat mushrooms and have ideas — I bet there's people inside the video game world, and I know inside the movie world and the world of literature too — I've always thought having the opportunity to do deep-dive research projects for money would be really cool. Did somebody get to do that for Red Dead Redemption? Like, "We've got to make this realistic, so I've got to study the time period"?

Jeremy: Yeah, they actually did stuff like that. One of the voice actors even mentions that in Red Dead Redemption 2, the F word's only used a couple of times, 'cause back then they would have used it, but not like how we do today.

Nicky P: Pretty Samuel L. Jackson world.

Jeremy: Yeah. And Rockstar — the two guys that started that company are very into movies, and that blends into what they do. There's a lot of Stanley Kubrick-ness that goes on in their games if you really go back and re-watch it.

Brian Pritchard: Dude, and one of the Grand Theft Auto games that was in heavy rotation in the early 2000s — I think it was part three, and certainly whatever one was right before the one with Ray Liotta, which was obviously movie-inspired — the whole radio soundtrack was the Scarface soundtrack songs. I just remember "Rush, rush to me, yeah" was constantly on in every house I went to, and it was like, "Damn, why is that stupid Scarface song everywhere now?"

Songwriting as Choose Your Own Adventure 00:27:00

Brian Pritchard: But I was thinking, in the musical realm, I sort of get to scratch a version of that itch — you responding to the Bandersnatch idea, going, "That's one of the things I like, getting to react or steer the ship." When I'm creating something from a songwriting perspective, things don't arrive fully formed. There's this intuitive process, but as an initial songwriter creating the melody, and then again as a drummer, there's actually more than one spot where it feels like there are storytelling decisions that can be made. You have a riff and you go, "Do I wanna lean into making this heavier? Do I wanna create a contrast with what's been established and change somebody's mood, steer it in this other direction?" And similarly as a drummer, you have a piece and go, "This is the meter of the melody and the general vibe it's sending out. Do I wanna lean into that vibe, or try to throw the listener for a loop?" I'm grateful to have opportunities where I can craft that, but there's also times where I just wanna be in the hands of capable professionals and let them do their job. So it goes both ways, I guess.

Jeremy: Yeah. And music's a great way to add to storytelling, 'cause you can set the mood just by the music itself, before there's lyrics added to it.

Brian Pritchard: Yeah, and video games have great scores. Even that's another thing I've had buddies keep coming back to: "I come back to this one for the story and the music."

Jeremy: Yes. A lot of the games now are basically set up like how a movie would be with their storytelling. But some of the older games, even like Final Fantasy VII, 'cause it was early on when they were doing that stuff — a lot of the time the music sets the mood for what's going on in the scene.

Score vs. Soundtrack: Stubbs the Zombie to The Godfather 00:29:30

Nicky P: Along those same lines, I think score and soundtrack exist simultaneously in the video game world. Brian's friend Luke has a music reaction channel, Right Man Wrong Place, and so much of what he reacts to is video game music in particular, because the soundtracks are so — it's a little bit different here than it is in Japan, where a lot of his listeners are. Certainly in Japan, video game score and soundtrack is a huge business. It's kind of wild over there. One of the things I always bring up is that back in the day there was a video game called Stubbs the Zombie. Part of what made that game was you're driving around in an old Caddy as a zombie, running people over, and on the radio it was all 1950s music — you're kind of in that world. But as part of the marketing, it was all modern bands doing 1950s songs. Ben Kweller did "Lollipop," The Walkmen did a song, The Flaming Lips did "If I Only Had a Brain" from the Wizard of Oz. Part of the charm of the game was setting up this alternate '50s-style world with the soundtrack. It wasn't scored — it was literally soundtracking. It always amuses me how both things can be true. Part of what makes Forrest Gump a great movie is that wild soundtrack—

Brian Pritchard: The needle drops.

Nicky P: Yeah. Whereas you approach something like The Godfather, and it's the score that makes a movie like that. It wouldn't have been the same if it wasn't playing.

Brian Pritchard: You're right. A needle drop can have that extra power because of the relationship we already have with it as an audience — the opening riff of a thing can go, "Oh, shit." I'm not a huge AC/DC guy, but I think of Iron Man 2 — dun-dun-nuh, dun-dun-nuh. That needle drop is probably used in a bunch of places.

Jeremy's Fingerprints: Live Mixing vs. Recording 00:32:00

Brian Pritchard: But Jeremy, I'm curious, in terms of your artistic voice and artistic fingerprints — you have decisions you're making in the room, but I assume, and correct me where I'm wrong, that the recording space is a particular place to shine and apply your fingerprints, your voice, your style. Where do you feel you have the biggest opportunity to put something forward that you feel pride of ownership in?

Jeremy: In recording, I guess. With live mixing you get that too, but once the night's over — people will remember it, but it's more like the bands will remember it, not the fans. On the recording side you do get more of that, because if I'm working on a project with you guys, let's say, I'm also caring about what the people listening to it are gonna judge — you know, my work.

Brian Pritchard: Is there a particular recording project you've been a part of, studio-wise, at Maple Grove, at any point in time, that you feel most proud of?

Jeremy: So far this year — it hasn't been released yet — this band called Lords of the Highway. I just mixed their next single, and it sounds so phenomenal. Between the studio they went to and then me mixing it, it sounds like they had money from a record label to go do all of this.

Where to Find Jeremy (and Booking Maple Grove) 00:34:15

Brian Pritchard: Love that. I ask in part because any time we do an interview like this, I always like to segue into something that showcases what you do. I know that for any of the acts coming out to Maple Grove, you offer the immediacy of a live recording, which I find tremendously valuable. What you just described is a situation where somebody did some tracking and sent it to you to turn it into something mixed and mastered and ready for release. Where do you like to be found online? A website, Facebook, through the Grove? What are ways that anybody hearing this can find and engage with you, for booking or for recording?

Jeremy: If you wanna book at Maple Grove, the easiest way is just to email maplegrovetavern@gmail.com. I usually hit the email at least a couple of times a day Monday through Friday. Weekends I'm kinda not active on it—

Brian Pritchard: You're either working or you want some downtime. God forbid you relax.

Jeremy: Yeah. So Monday is my big catch-up-on-emails day — usually the first two hours of my day is going through all that. For other stuff, I'm in the process of building a website for all my audio work, to get booking out. It's about halfway completed. My main thing is having some free time to finish it up — I need a good night or two, and then it can be launched. That'll be launching soon. Other than that, just my Facebook, and Instagram too.

Naming the Brand: MixYourShit.com and SteelyardMixing.com 00:36:30

Brian Pritchard: What's the domain name you're gonna use when you finish the website?

Jeremy: I'm not sure yet either. I don't know if I should just call it, like, Jay Jones Audio, for example. 'Cause with Maple Grove, the owner has another bar, and in the basement there we're gonna be converting one of the rooms into an actual recording studio. So I don't know if we make everything off a studio site or if I have two. The way I have the website set up now, you could also hire me to do sound at your private party, if you were booking a live private event.

Brian Pritchard: Interesting. So some of those branches and the branding are still being sorted out.

Jeremy: My best way to get me for that would just be my personal social media right now.

Brian Pritchard: Got it. Well, we obviously have the live audio we worked with you on from Maple Grove. If the band you mentioned, that you recently worked with, is open to you sharing, I'd love to have some sort of track we could play out at the end of the episode. And I think there'd be a great opportunity to have you come back on. I'd love to hear about the progress when we fast-forward and you have that basement studio opened up. That might be a good opportunity to come back and showcase that facility as well.

Nicky P: I did find your URL. MixYourShit.com is available.

Jeremy: Yeah, that's the other thing — I always suck at coming up with branding. That's what I wanna figure out for this new studio. It's in a sweet location. It's right before you get to the steel yard. So my boss is excited, because we're gonna have a studio and it's actually gonna technically be in Cleveland. So it won't be like, "Oh, my studio's in Cleveland," but it's really in Parma or Brunswick or one of the suburb-y places out here.

Nicky P: Steelyardmixing.com is available.

Brian Pritchard: Damn, that's solid too, man. Steelyard Mixing. Wow, wow, wow. Okay.

Live Recordings and Investing in Your Band 00:39:30

Jeremy: Like you said, you guys got — I did two live recordings for you guys. I think for any new bands out there, that's probably the best deal you're gonna get for getting something recorded and out there, if you wanted to do more than just one or two songs.

Nicky P: Me and Brian have both done some consulting work with you, and it has baffled both of us, the people that aren't willing to spend money on what is a no-brainer of an investment in their band. I can't think of a reason not to spend that kind of money on getting that done. Unless you really think your band sucks, in which case you don't want to record your band. I tend to operate, I guess, at a higher level, but—

Brian Pritchard: Nothing to see here, nothing to see here, boys.

Jeremy: No, you guys helped me out immensely with consulting work, and letting me pick your brains — "Am I doing this wrong? What can I do to improve this?"

The Cleveland Scene and AI Show Posters 00:40:45

Nicky P: I'm gonna interject this into the conversation at some point. I did wanna ask a question of the guy on the front lines of the booking part of things. What are your thoughts on the state of the scene, if you could call it that, in Cleveland right now?

Jeremy: Cleveland's always gonna be Cleveland. We're really spoiled as musicians out here on the local front, whether you believe it or not. You'll find that once you get to go tour other places in the country. I feel like it's good. The one thing I will touch on, which you guys have probably seen on my own personal Facebook, is using AI, especially for graphical work. I've talked with somebody else who called, before COVID, grunge bands coming back, so I'm with them on this one. The consensus is, at some point, with using AI, those bands are gonna fade themselves out. Even though it's trendy to do that right now, it looks so cheap in your branding. I feel like those bands are gonna unfortunately snuff themselves out, like in a fire. And the ones that are taking it seriously, like you mentioned, that wanna spend the money on themselves, will be successful. The other thing that's gonna suck too is, as the years go on, smaller and smaller venues are gonna go under, and then it's just gonna cater to the bigger guys.

Brian Pritchard: If you're constantly looking for shortcuts and ways to cheapen the process, how else is it gonna play out but make everything cheap and shitty?

Nicky P: What's sad is — I use AI openly for certain podcasts I do, for podcast thumbnails, because it's 100% consumable. Nobody gives a shit about your podcast thumbnail. What I was getting at, though, is that the idea of a poster for a show has become such a consumable product, and it's lost the mystique it used to have, that people would think that's an option. I would never dream of using AI on a poster, because I came up old-school punk rock DIY — we're going out there cutting magazines up and posting pictures from anything you can find. Very scrappy. It's a piece of art in and of itself. You look at those posters from the '70s rock bands, and some of those people became well-known graphic artists because of the work they did for the Grateful Dead or the James Gang. So this idea that people have such little faith in posters and what they represent for bands and shows—

Jeremy: Yeah, and those people also helped, in a way, shape those bands' identities through their artwork.

Flyers as Band History (and a Stubborn Sioux Falls Poster) 00:44:00

Nicky P: If you go to our webpage, I keep a history of every show flyer we've ever been on. The reason I do that is because, to me, it's part of your band's story. And you're not gonna see AI on our page, 'cause I don't ever use it. I'm not gonna say all the posters we've ever been on have been great posters, but I certainly try to put the effort in when I'm designing stuff. Perhaps to my own detriment — when I'm supposed to be doing other stuff for the tour and I'm getting stuck on this stupid Sioux Falls poster because I just don't like the way it's turning out.

Jeremy: I've even made posters where I show my significant other and I'm like, "Can you believe I made this in 10 minutes?" And they're like, "Yeah, it looks like it." It's not that it's bad — I just did something really fast and simple. And it's funny, because I've watched people get some of those printed out and hanging in their house, and I just laugh, 'cause I'm like, "This thing I made is hanging on their wall," and it took me 10 minutes to make. You won't really get that with an unauthentic thing that you're making, you know?

Brian Pritchard: Yeah, and you do still see it at professional-level tours. Every band I go see, they have tonight's exclusive foil variant — this one's signed, this one's unsigned. There seems to be a niche market for that as a collectible, the same way that when I go see Down at House of Blues tonight, I definitely wanna buy a tour T-shirt. That's my collectible from my shows. Other people dig the posters. But you're right, Nick. Even back in high school, I used to do the photocopy collage version — put together a collage, make a bunch of photocopies, slap it up on the lockers at the high school, go out to the Exchange or anywhere that would let you put something up. The idea of doing that in today's landscape — yeah, no.

"Where's It Going?": Bands That Phone It In 00:46:45

Brian Pritchard: In a way, there's something almost implicit in your point, Jeremy — if your mindset is already looking for a dispassionate, uninvolved shortcut for the thing that you should be most personally connected to, that's a fucking bad sign. You know what I mean?

Nicky P: Well, I'm always trying to find the story in a show. What is the cohesive thing behind all these bands? Even if there are widely disparate genres, there's still usually some kind of through line you can find. I did it on the show we did in June that kind of kicked off our tour here. We always used to do this when we were doing flyers back in the day — you'd come up with a description of each band, and a lot of times you'd lead with humor. I remember a flyer that listed nothing but some version of core — dad core, laundry core. Just a way to be silly and have fun with the medium. And if you can't muster enough creativity for that — maybe this isn't the — I guess, once again, it's indicative of the disposability of what you're doing in the first place. I don't ever want what I do musically to be that disposable, and I will fight it kicking and screaming. If I have to go more over the top to get people to notice me, I will. I will always chase that down, because that's my nature — I come to entertain. Entertainer is the first thing that I wanna do; music in a certain way is second for me. I really enjoy that old-school Las Vegas vibe. I'm gonna go up there and be as big as I have to be to put on a show that makes you happy walking away from here. When I talk about the scene, one of my frustrations is you do have bands out there that just look like they're phoning it in. Are you putting it in the music? Where is all of your energy going? 'Cause I'm not seeing it on the stage, I'm not hearing it on the record. Clearly it's not in your flyers. Where's it going?

Jeremy: Those bands are the ones that usually wonder why doesn't anyone care about what I'm doing. They don't realize—

Brian Pritchard: That's the one time where you're like, "Shit, I usually hate the feedback, but it's equally off-putting to have no one care at all."

Jeremy: Yeah, exactly. That should make you feel worse than people telling you, "Well, I just didn't like it. Not my thing, but..."

Nicky P: There's plenty of things out there that are not my thing, but hey, I respect it. It's awful when it's like, I don't wanna say anything, 'cause there's nothing good I have to say.

Jeremy: Yeah, and I always hate when people ask me, "What did you think?" 'Cause it's not about what I think, it's about what other people think.

Playing Nice With the Sound Guy 00:50:00

Nicky P: Well, when I ask you what you think — I do tend to go out of my way to make the job of sound guy as comfortable as possible. I'm averse to being a pain in the ass on stage as much as possible. As Brian learned while on tour with me, I will pretty much play anywhere and do it with a smile on my face and not complain about whatever sound they put in front of me. A lot of that comes from having played punk rock stages for a long time. I've played a lot of living rooms where we move the couches out in the punk house and throw up a couple speakers. You're not getting any monitors — whatever you hear is what that speaker in the corner of the room's putting out. So there's a certain familiarity and comfort I have. I'm gonna go out and do my thing, and hopefully it translates into the experience people are having, 'cause I have no idea — I can't hear myself, so let's hope it works for them. So much of that, for me, is realizing there are limitations, and I expect whoever's running whatever room understands those limitations and is doing their best. I might ask once or twice, "Hey, can I get a little more or a little less of this in the mix?" But if I'm finding it's not happening, I'm not gonna fight it, because either they don't understand, in which case we're gonna waste a bunch of time, or they literally can't do anything about it, and they're trying their best with the constraints of the system and the room.

Jeremy: Yeah, and whenever there's sound gigs, it can be nerve-wracking from the sound guy's perspective, 'cause the whole night I could fuck everyone's night up. Not on purpose, just with something going wrong and not being able to do something.

Nicky P: I'm very cognizant you could do it on purpose if you wanted to also, so don't piss that guy off is a good rule of thumb.

Jeremy: Well, yeah, there's also that. But I don't wanna be that guy. I'm always waiting for a power amp to fail in the middle of the show or something like that. Luckily, that usually doesn't happen, but that's what I'm always on edge about — you don't wanna ruin a band's night, or potentially even worse, the people that came out to see them. 'Cause then if the band books at that same place again, you want their fans to come back and not be like, "Oh, remember last time?" if they had a very bad experience.

Nicky P: Right on. Well, I got the punch in that I wanted to get in there.

Jeremy: Oh, the sound guy punch.

Outro: Back From Tour, and Steelyard Mixing 00:53:00

Brian Pritchard: Well, I'm excited to put something on the books and collaborate with you again. We had this cross-country tour that was dominating my thoughts for a while, and we've been back for a month now, but I still feel like I'm in dust-settling mode. I'm confident we will get something else booked with you here this year. I wanna get something secured with—

Nicky P: I've been meaning to email you. I just haven't yet.

Brian Pritchard: We'll see you out in the real world. I appreciate the time you shared with us today. And come back when the studio's up and running, and we'll talk more about steelyardmixing.com.

Jeremy: Yeah. Or whatever we end up—

Brian Pritchard: I know, I know. It is a good name.

Jeremy: It is. I've been thinking about it, because it is in that area. Should we have it Steelyard-related or not?

Nicky P: SteelyardMix is also available.

Brian Pritchard: And we're turning it into music and podcast for you.